Topic Title

Cen, I agree with your point that, under the new system, volume will overshadow skill. That's not what we, or at least I was arguing about. The point I was making, to some degree, still stands: the game is fair because everyone starts at the same point and can choose what to do from there. Whether the game should become more or less forgiving to less dedicated players is up in the air.

Under the current system, in which the stakes are apparently high enough to scare away anyone who might lose, skill and creativity are certainly required to compete at the top level.

Also, I started playing seriously in April. It took me three months to become competitive at a high level and only one month more to reach the top. Supreme is correct on this, in my opinion: the game is still the same at that level; in fact, it's even easier to progress now with the recent changes.

it's even easier to progress now with the recent changes.

Easier? If, you were already established. Try it now. Restart from scratch today. Don't buy any flux or packages and see just how easy the game is. You will have experience on your side. That's about it. Everyone else that is new to the game doesn't have that and they have to fumble through the game trying to figure out what enemies they have to kill next in order to use the highest arts possible for their level. There are gaps in the arts and the game isn't just how easy it is to "level up". But, i'm sure you'll depend on your friends to level you up quickly. I ask that you don't rely on anyone else. Try to do it with just you and your "skills".

I think what you will find a completely different game. It's definitely a different game than just 3 months ago. I had to stop my playthrough on youtube cause the game I showed in the playthrough is nothing like the current game. Nothing after 5 episode (there are 20 episodes) reflect what the actual game is like today. Episode 5 is when I got renegade arts at level 12. Now, players have to wait until level 54 or so to even use a renegade art. Think about this for a second... a level 19 player can't even use Ossakel arts. The game in the early stages really handicaps players. Is it making them better? That's hard to say.. depending on how many players i'm repeatedly seeing ask for help in global. And of course those players that ask for help aren't the majority of players. There are many players that just don't ask questions and do things on their own. I talk to a lot of players and the game now is way harder than it was just 3 months ago.

Yes, farming is a lot easier. I give them that. That's been a needed change game wide. But, it seems that there is problems with that. Plasma Fluids.... which no one needed before are all of a sudden a top commodity. And the best place to farm that? Regius. Suuuure. Let's have these people that can't even kill a BQ just take on Regius.

See. I used to only look at this game from the perspective of an experienced player. But, after I was getting comments in game that all my videos were just geared for higher tier players; I really started to look at the game from a beginner's standpoint. And that's what I have been doing for every update since. Look at these updates as a new player to the game. How will it affect me? Will this be good or bad for brand new players. Will it even affect experience established players (most of the recent updates don't even affect anyone above level 115).

This current update is no exception. I'm not looking at this just from my experienced point of view. I'm looking at it from all the players coming up through the game. Some of them will be kings only because they can put the time in. I really do hope the update works out. But, it doesn't look good from all perspectives.

I think its pretty obvious what's going on...the current system makes Prickles actually have to work a little bit for the rewards. And the new proposed system would make it a complete cakewalk for him.

the game is fair because everyone starts at the same point and can choose what to do from there.

How is that fair in the least?

Under the current system, in which the stakes are apparently high enough to scare away anyone who might lose, skill and creativity are certainly required to compete at the top level.

DING DING DING!!! You've hit it on the head...so, why then are Prickles and Chaos (two subpar skilled pilots) 2 of the top 3? Oh yeah! The creativity part!!!

Sure, it isn't perfect.

I don't think art feeding was the way to make the game easier in the beginning, though.

I say it is easier now because players can no longer waste time begging for arts. They are forced into a more linear path, which is, in my opinion, a better way to play the game at that level. As one's level increases, a wider and wider array of enemies and artifacts become available, offering the freedom to explore. Now, by the time a player can use blob arts, they are more experienced than they would have been before the artifact limitation.

Is it as easy in the simplest form of that word? Maybe not, considering one can't play through the game skipping entire areas worth of artifacts. I think it's easier to see the path to power, though, and isn't that what we want?

Some people tend to complain that they're "stuck" and they've tried for months to get stronger, but they can't. This is an absurd mindset to have, in my opinion. There is always a way to improve: arts, leveling, grinding steel, testing setups, sparring with others. What better way to point them in the right direction than to constrain their options, such that they must kill certain enemies to progress in level and artifacts?

Also, BrianN, we apparently have different definitions of fairness. My perspective is that everyone should have the same opportunity, which we do by the nature of this game. Everyone can get the same stuff, provided they put the effort in. I think Nightsky believes the equal opportunity should be introduced right before PvP matches, which I disagree with on the basis that it marginalizes people who actually bother to put effort into grinding.

What is your idea of fairness?

Ok for some of you this has degenerated into little other than name calling when you cant form a logical counterarguement. Just do the rest of us a favor and be quiet/dont post at taht point. Both sides do have valid points here...


@scythe yeah pvp hasnt given good resources for a long time now, and i cant figure why the devs havent fixed this. Id think the option to select just one lump of a given resource, or exp as a reward at the end of each match would be nice, but i shouldnt get 12k steel with my daily bonus active for a third place in dm.

@prickles lets be perfectly clear on this, if this is work for any of you, i want your job, probably less stressful than mine.

@whoeversaidthisicantremember yeah damage arts and damage in general just skyrockets compared to survivability, so what used to be fun is now over before i can get warmed up(pvp matches that is). Things just get worse as the actual level of the art gets higher, to the point where some people say trash tier starter weapons are good because they have 500% rof and 300% all damage.

@boogerito your going in the right direction but i'd say use the actual level of the art, not the potential, or maybe a combination of the two factors, regardless for us endgamers level means nothing...

You didn't ask me my fairness factor. I think when they did the art restrictions they should have cleared everyone's arts. Is that fair? Yes. Everyone should have had to replace their arts with what they can farm themselves. Instead a whole block of players completely skipped out of any art restriction. Be thankful that I don't get to make these kinds of decisions .

Also, pvp is always popular in a lot of games. In many games players are pitted against people of their same level/experience. In Astroflux... they are not. The tiers really need to be redone as Scythe has pointed out. I also think that arts shouldn't be applied in pvp. We'd really get to see who is skilled in pvp and who is depending everything on their arts/elite techs. Again, you guys be thankful I don't get to make these decisions. And I'm sure i'm not the first one to suggest such craziness in pvp.

Since the current system being discussed looks like is going to be a reality; skill isn't a factor anymore. Lets remove arts/elte techs completely and see what happens. But, of course this will never happen.

[bolbi]

Well after reading all these posts, I can kind of agree with most of you on at least some parts of your arguments.

My sugestions would be to create 2 different kinds of PvP. One in which skill is much more a factor. And another that is more of just pickup games for the average player (the one that doesn't put as much time in a game as they could a job IRL)

For the first kind, my personal suggestion would be to make something where the arts, ships, and weapons you can use are the same for all players. And would be rewarded weekly with rewards similar to what is being suggested 1000 for first, so on and so forth.

The first thing that came to mind for me was something along the lines of this.

At the start of every week you get a new pool of, maybe like 5, random ships to choose from. Whatever ship you choose, you can use that ship's non-transferable weapon(s) plus any transferable weapons. You can only have 12 weapon/ship upgrades at level 6 and only 10 of those can have level 100 ETs. Then there should be either, no arts, a set collection of arts, or a set collection of arts that change from week to week (both of the last 2 would be the same arts for every player). Also anyone above level 50 can join, but everyone's stats would be that of a level 100 and troons would not have an effect. And you would only be allowed to reset these upgrades 2 times every week, to keep people from just using this to test Ships/Weapons/ETs.

Now as for the second type of PvP. I would say something like what Cen has suggested would be good (including some small flux rewards and/or better resources/xp than we get currently. Just to give some incentive to play it)

The first kind of PvP I'm gonna call it "Serious PvP," I think should be based on skill and should be rewarded decently. The thing I explained was just a suggestion of what could be done to single out said skill a bit better. Basically if you want skill to be the thing being rewarded then things like Level, Arts, Troons, Weapons, and Resources, need to be the same for all players participating. Otherwise the the ones who have all the Weapons and Ships in the game at their disposal, plus the Resources, Arts, and, to an extent, Skill to make said things useful will be the ones getting rewarded.

The second type of PvP, I'll call it "Casual PvP," I believe should cater to the player that doesn't have all the time in the world to play this game but still wants to kill people and have fun. As I said earlier I like Cen's Idea for this, and as the "Skilled Players" should be more focused on "Serious PvP" there won't be as much "curb stomping" as there is in PvP currently.

Sorry if this was a bit long but I just wanted to put my opinions down.

[traf]

From a quick skim, sounds like the old arenas that were removed ages ago.

[Bellatrix]

I agree on this:

Make sure that there is a even number of players for DOM, should never be 3vs5

Include the handicap system suggested here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11359

Include "fictive" rewards for top PvP players each month, e.g. a skull next to their name. Same should be for top PvE players, but instead of a skull a cute alien (?). PVP rewards could be based on this new system, but as scythe said you would need to play alot to be top 10, not the best, just the one who plays the most...

Increase the rewards given from a DM/DOM game, so that it is worth to play pvp instead of farming cleaner...

People who are AFK or leave a DM/DOM >3 times a day should get a "ban" from entering a DM/DOM for 48 hours.

Make it so that you can not enter DM/DOM by being afk, standard answer should be no and you need to do an acitve choice to choose pvp.

After that we can all pew pew and have fun

So, correct me if I'm misinterpreting your whining

It's not whining...

"You people are too strong for me to compete with, so everyone should be weakened so I can compete."

I don't care about competing with others... I care about having fairplay, which is not available here in any way.

You think players who spend the time and put the effort into being strong shouldn't be rewarded for it?

You said it... "rewarded". But a reward shouldn't go into insane heights aka "randomized artifacts". And yes, artifacts are mainly the cause of imbalance.

If you think you can win PvP by getting a few thousand flux, go buy some and see how far it can take you without any effort.

No comment... i'm tired of saying it all the time over and over and over again... May some other friendly soul explain what i would explain now.

The people who are strong don't suddenly get there. In June, I hadn't touched PvP seriously. In July, I was in the top 10. Since then, I've taken first every month. I didn't magically do that because I got that first 250 flux. I got there because I used to grind like a maniac, and I trained with Shredder for hours a day. I was obsessed with getting stronger.

If your personal goal is to become the best in a flash game... then it is your personal decision. My goal is to have fun in a game and experience all content in a full extend without suffering from the inability of creating a finally fair game. And just to make it clear, i also spent 800 hours into Darkorbit and i am UFE... but i know the guy who plays for 10.000 hours is just a tiny bit better than i am by having full havoc. transfering this logic into astroflux means even if you play for 50.000 hours or 100.000 hours it doesn't mean that you suddenly are the best in the game because you know there would be limits.

This is an MMO where the impetus to play for a lot of players comes from PvP. Why do we grind and optimize everything? To do well in PvP. Leveling the playing field with artificial fairness is laughable. We already have fairness. Everyone starts out in Hyperion in crappy little ships, we are all given the equal opportunity to grind artifacts and steel, and everyone can buy the same ships and pods. What you choose to do with that opportunity is entirely up to you - if you waste it complaining on the forums, you shouldn't complain that you can't compete. And yes, I know not everyone has the same amount of time to commit to playing this game. This is why I think PvP brackets should be based on average artifact level, as that is a much better indicator of strength.

Comes from a player who has achieved everything in-game already, pretty much the only reason why you even say that. Compared to back then when i started, the playtime and investment of money didn't matter that much, you could win a PvP match even without being a superior player. No, even better, i won PvP-Matches back then with a starter ship and not-so-rare-and-strong-weapons unthinkable nowadays.

If the above hasn't convinced you of anything, let's try an analogy:
Consider sports. A few naturally talented and particularly dedicated individuals reach an international level of play. These people work absurdly hard to get to the top, and they enjoy competing with players of comparable skill.

Congratulations, you compare an apple with an orange. In sports, you come together with athletes who have the same ability and aren't omni-potent. Thus, usain bolt is good at running and speeds while he possibly sucks at playing football. Here in astroflux you can take the role of everything... If you can kill zhersis, you can farm arts, if you farm strong arts, you become stronger... becoming stronger results in becoming better in PvP. becoming better in PvP allows you to get flux, getting flux gives you more possibilities of optimization and finding tactics, thus, the circle repeats.

the people who spend the time and maybe the money, will and should be the strongest. It is frankly a bit insulting that you think this is somehow unfair - that I don't deserve to be as strong as I am, given our equal beginnings. Nightsky, you've even been playing a lot longer than I have. What's your excuse?

This thinking of "spending time = being the best" makes me sick at some point. Look at so many MMO's around you... You can be happy that there is an MMO like astroflux that allows you to go into insane heights, other MMO's have limits in strength and the only thing you can improve there is your skill.

And my excuse for playing longer and being weaker is that i don't waste my time playing a flash-game 24/7 and attempt to achieve something in games that people actually know aka overwatch etc.

dunno but i should possibly start doing a video about the problems in astroflux...

What is your idea of fairness?

A system where people cant collude to team up in a FFA, throw a group v group match, allow multiple gamebanned hackers into the same clan as half the mods, let those same hackers and mods violate the ToS time after time and abuse their power and the community, and where the utter lack of skill will keep 2 of the top 3 in pvp rankings where they belong (out of the top ten).

@prickles lets be perfectly clear on this, if this is work for any of you, i want your job, probably less stressful than mine.

He is a 16 year old homeschooled religious fundamentalist kid.

My sugestions would be to create 2 different kinds of PvP. One in which skill is much more a factor. And another that is more of just pickup games for the average player (the one that doesn't put as much time in a game as they could a job IRL)

I cant imagine why we would have one kind where skill doesnt really matter. You dont have to play this game a long time to have the skill to compete in the current system IF THE SYSTEM WAS FAIR.


From my earlier post with the tons of quotes from others I thought I made it clear that the problem isnt overpowered players, its that two supremely (hardy har har) unskilled players are in the top 3 because of the rampant unfairness of the system.

Nightsky, the analogy between athletes and players holds except for the aspect of natural talent, which was the entire point.

In Astroflux, everyone DOES have the same opportunity to get stronger, so they don't have any excuses to make besides "I don't play enough", and that's their fault, not anyone else's.

Also, yes, your posts are literally whining.

BrianN, I understand your frustration with collusion in PvP; however, you can just do the same to fight it. There is nothing stopping you. A lot of us have wanted true team/clan PvP matches for a while. Also, your idea of fairness doesn't seem to relate all that well with what we were talking about before. Talk to me in-game if you want to continue this discussion, because I sense it's going too off-topic.

Yes, farming is a lot easier. I give them that. That's been a needed change game wide. But, it seems that there is problems with that. Plasma Fluids.... which no one needed before are all of a sudden a top commodity. And the best place to farm that? Regius. Suuuure. Let's have these people that can't even kill a BQ just take on Regius.

You hit the nail on the head with this one. Plasma needs addressed...


As for Nightsky, I think you have it wrong its not that people don't wanna put the work in to be good at PVP. It's just that because its like a side of the game that should promote skill rather than brute force. If you wanna show off how strong your ship is or how amazing you are keep that in PVE, help people. But without balance(Based on player skill not ship strength) PVP is only fun the strongest guy there. Everyone else just stops queuing.

boogerrito, you didn't even read, did you?

But okay, it doesn't matter if i say something or not. But i may repeat myself, I don't care about my ranking and competing. I just feel sorry for those who simply want to enjoy PvP but they can't because either PvP was once again completely unfair for them or they take a look at the monthly score-board and already avoid pressing the PvP button. Ohh, btw, congratulations to the one depraved player who claimed the first place on... no wait... congratulations to the half depraved clan for being like all first to fourth place! #Deserved #Fair I approve that.

Alright seriously now. I play this game for so long, congratulations, you were actually the first one who noticed it, props for that. And i can tell how it was back then, and back then PvP was purely fun, not competitive. You played because you knew you will receive a crap ton of EXP and minerals, the reward was worth something. Today the rewards are peanuts because the game evolved but not the rewards. And even worse is that the participation is a big mistake as you actually just feed the PvP-Junkies. I would enjoy PvP a lot more if i knew that my participation rewards me with like 20k - 30k Steel and 5k - 7.5k other minerals, as well as ~30k - 40k EXP. Okay, might be a bit too much but over time this would help a lot especially having fun AND getting something out of it. But how is it right now? You join, you play but what's the point? Make an appropriate point for me.

And yes boogerrito. You farmed your way up... oh wait, did you say "shredder taught me" aka "My friend who did all the work"? Well THAT explains a bit. Just for your information, most of the time i played alone i received a bit of help like taking some blob arts or getting a weapon quicker, but nothing more. You can ask everyone here who helped me and in what degree. The only players who helped me a bit were my own clan, samuelf, DaGGerz and Fatality. You were probably babysitted to the top. At least that's what i imagine.

Anyways. I hope you have fun with the upcoming months

Regards ~ Nightskee <3

[Bellatrix]

Could we please stop with the insults. You want to argue please do, challenge each other's arguments, there is no need for personal insults.