For AstroFlux related discussion
#73187 by BrianN Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:08 pm
Its certainly not being transparent at the moment...when the JJ&E wont respond to basic questions. If you wanna be the point man in a transparent balance change then at least be available.

The truth always lies between the two ends of an argument.
#73191 by Myorum Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:43 pm
I just saw that 30% more armor for Noxium got removed, may I ask why?
Cant remember that there was much talk about it.
And it was at least an interesting idea.

That which we call a rose would smell as sweet by any other name.
Best Arts-Thread
#73196 by Bellatrix Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:27 am
BrianN wrote:Its certainly not being transparent at the moment...when the JJ&E wont respond to basic questions. If you wanna be the point man in a transparent balance change then at least be available.


What questions do you want answer to that has not been answered yet? And who is JJ&E?

Only thing I can find is this: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=JJ%26E

And it does not really sound that flattering to be called any of those things on that list, but I must have missunderstood you and there is another meaning for that acronym?

Myorum wrote:I just saw that 30% more armor for Noxium got removed, may I ask why?
Cant remember that there was much talk about it.
And it was at least an interesting idea.


It was never a high priority change. And I think most here said that they wanted to fix only the most urgent things and leave ships as it is to the most extent.

Bellatrix, the shinning star of Astroflux
#73199 by BrianN Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:50 pm
Since scythe said
Any more specific requests do post below. Also will answer questions or reasonings if needed


I see we're still insisting on 'fixing' things that dont need to be fixed.

If you were really trying to balance things, you wouldnt be fluxing with every single weapon in the game.

Sure, rebalancing everything may be enjoyable to you/someone (cant see any other reason why you would tweak everything), but this game isnt yours.

I want to hear YOUR reasons for having this many changes.

And many others but IDGAFETSTMTLTU

JJ&E is Judge, Jury, and Executioner (scythe)...Kudos on the urban dictionary link, literally made me LOL. No, there was no insult intended, just that the one man who's running this who is scythe.

The truth always lies between the two ends of an argument.
#73203 by Bellatrix Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:42 pm
BrianN wrote:Since scythe said
Any more specific requests do post below. Also will answer questions or reasonings if needed


I see we're still insisting on 'fixing' things that dont need to be fixed.

If you were really trying to balance things, you wouldnt be fluxing with every single weapon in the game.

Sure, rebalancing everything may be enjoyable to you/someone (cant see any other reason why you would tweak everything), but this game isnt yours.

I want to hear YOUR reasons for having this many changes.

And many others but IDGAFETSTMTLTU

JJ&E is Judge, Jury, and Executioner (scythe)...Kudos on the urban dictionary link, literally made me LOL. No, there was no insult intended, just that the one man who's running this who is scythe.


lol glad to hear that link was wrong I am still puzzled about it, some joke I dont get I guess...

To answer your question:

What is broken and not broken is a manner of oppinion, on several of the weapons we have a clear voice while on others we are not united. The main purpose behind balancing is to make pvp more skill based from todays version. 2nd purpose is to make PVE and new bosses a bigger challenge, sometimes just giving the boss another 20 mil in helth is not going to cut it.

I have explained before that doing just 3-4 weapons at a time would require more attention from the devs under longer period of time. Time they might not have. It would also be weird for many players to have changes to weapons and/or ships ever month or so.

The current list of changes are: 31 weapons, around 1/3 of total weapons in game and 3 ships. It seems quite reasonable.

I can not speak for scythe, I can speak for us as a team, if it is Scythes words you want to read I guess we will have to wait for him to have get time and update this.

If there are more questions I will try to answer them as well.

Bellatrix, the shinning star of Astroflux
#73208 by ladelag Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:57 am
Like i've already said on a previous post, there's no reason to continuing with this "reward skill" direction for the next balance update, is not something WE the majority support and it's unfair to keep this direction only for one player personal point of view (could be more that one but still is not the majority). So this is my opinion about the 5th edit balance update:

Reduce regen contribution from convert arts to 0.5%
Reduce artifact conversion factor from convert arts by 10%


As is already been established that this update will be only about high priority changes, then i would say that this two proposed changes are in the category of low priority. Doesn't matter if you are making only the high priority changes, they are still a lot of things that we all the players will have to confront and make a lot of testing to make a decents setups in our ships again. This two changes should be left to discuss by all later on the low priority changes after WE ALL players will have the chance to make our tests.

And talking about high and low prioriies, i think that chrono beam and larva lightning changes should be included into the high priority changes. These are another two broken weps, only i didn't remember them because there are even more broken weps that need to be nerfed.

Electro Field:
Add projectiles tech
Reduce AOE by 51%
Increase power use 200%
Increase reloadTime 30%
Increase base damage 60%
Reduce pvp damage by 50%


We are trying to nerf EF because by far is the most broken wep currently on the game. If i'm right, by adding projectiles tech you are giving it more damage in some kind of effort to try to compensate the other nerfs it will has, which i think it shouldn't be. EF doesn't need a compensation like other weps, it needs a severe nerf because no matter how we nerf it in this update it still will be very powerful.

Doesn't need an AoE reduction, i think we the majority here have agreed on that.

I want a numerical answer of how will be the power use (currently number of power use and the number with the proposed 200% increase) and also what is the currently reload time and the numbers of how it will be with the 30% increase proposed.

If you are giving to EF an increase base damage because the PvP penalty you have proposed, then i want to see an increase of damage in other weps nerfed like corro lightning, particle gun, psg, etc that makes them equal of powerful like EF... see? is not fair, so remove the increase base damage proposed (is completely unnecessary and gives EF an unfair and even more advantage on PvE that what currently is) and give us the number of how it will be its damage with the 50% PvP penalty proposed.

Hell Flames:
Increase base reloadTime by 30% from 50 to 65
Reduce dot tech from 100% to 50%
Increase power cost 30%
Reduce specialBonus from 100% to 50%


I would like to know with what is related the burn damage (is it dot? is it base damage?), some players here were debating over that topic, but i think there wasn't a clear answer from mods. I said this because the burn damage from HF is too broken, so whatever the thing that is contributing with its burn damage needs a severe nerf. I want a clear answer so i (and i think all) can make a better desicion about hell flames.

Particle Gun:
Reduce projectile speed 20%
Remove attackspeed tech
Increase power cost 100%


Like i've been saying, you don't need to remove its attack speed tech. This is a wep commonly use by many low lvls conceived for they can advance better into the game and also for they can have a more friendly play experience, so by nerfing particle gun this much you are punishing them. Also is a wep that you can get by buying the beginner package, is not P2W (this is a not P2W game) and you are hurting the real money income that devs get from ppl purshasing this package).

The main reason why particle gun is getting nerfed is because players using it on PvP 100+ matches, there's no reason to affect also PvE and low lvl players now that you will display PvP damage modifiers for weapons ingame (which was your excuse/reason for nerfing the weps in their general stats and not giving only PvP penalties).

So now that we can apply PvP penalties without affecting the rest of players i would say is time for a different kind of nerf in particle gun. Place a damage penalty (reduce attack speed by 50?) ONLY for PvP matches and leave the rest of the wep alone.

Now that i mentioned that we can now apply only PvP penalties, i would like to talk about cl:

Corrosive Lightning:
Increase reloadTime 20%
Increase dot tech from 35% to 60%
Reduce dot duration from 5 to 4 seconds
Increase power use 20%


Cl is ONLY a strong wep if you are lvl 110-120+ and IF you have good arts for it (the most difficult to farm for them and to find), so i don't see the need of nerfing this much the wep because then you are harming low lvl players and lvl 100+ players with bad arts.

The main reason why cl is getting nerfed is again because complaints from players about PvP 100+ matches, so nerf it ONLY in PvP. Apply the reduce dot duration from 5 to 4 seconds and the increase power use by 20% changes suggested ONLY for PvP as a penalty.

Photonic Blaster:
Remove attackspeed tech
Reduce burn tech to 500%


Apply the reduce burn tech to 500% as a PvP penalty and there's no need to remove its attack speed tech for the reasons i just gave above, instead reduce it's attack speed ONLY for PvP as a penalty maybe by 50%.

Piraya:
Add Shake to remove feature
Make non-novaable
OR:
Increase lifetime from 9 to 15 seconds
Remove +100% pvp damage


Scythe, after making this 5th edit you said: "Piraya: yes pvp bonus should be removed either way."

Myorum already has explained why is unfair/unnecessary too well. But i would like to reinforce myorum's point of view (and mine too), there's no need to also remove piraya's PvP damage if you have the option to counterattack them by shake them of nova them because those attributes are already making piraya's non-viable to make damage. So as you can see there's no a fair reason to remove the PvP damage of pirayas, it is already a close to useless wep with the qualitity of nova/shake them.

I would like to know if your suggestion is nova them and also shake them. Beacuse is not fair that you can do both, either you can nova them of you can shake them but not both options aviable. In this case i would say just shake them because a lot of players liked that idea, but i'm stil thinking there's no reason to touch piraya's at all if you already have a way to counterattack them. And the excuse "i don't want to use a nova" is extremely poor and way too inward into the unfair, well i also don't want to use a debuffer but i have to and i don't complaint about it because is my choice to do it or not and i have to face the concecuences of my choices.

Also i want to know if the shake ability would work the same way pirayas do when they kill a player, in the case of killing a player the pirayas part way in different directions and either they vanish for their life time or they find another player to attack. If you are making them shakeable then i would say they work the same as they currently do when they kill a player and of course if the pirayas's shooter is still alive (because they'll vanish after the pirayas's shooter died).

Plankton Siphon Gland:
Reduce attackspeed tech to from 50% to 35%
Reduce range tech from 75% to 40%
Increase power use 50%
Add kinetic base tech
Increase extra leech techs 50%
Reduce base leech to 20%


Either you only reduce its attack speed or you only reduce its base leech, because by reducing its attack speed you are already reducing how fast psg can leech, so i say chooce only one of those options.

You have to remember that psg is also a wep that is ONLY strong if you are lvl 110-120+ and IF you have good arts for it, i've been using it for quite a time now and psg doesn't work properly if you are not high lvl and also if you don't have at least 2 good corro flat arts and a good rof art (which both good corro and rof arts are one of the most difficult arts to find and to farm), so if you don't have all this arts (doesn't matter if you have the et max upgraded) then you can't kill fulzar and vorsran things without have been get killed a few times first, because psg is not strong enough to kill an enemy before it kills you first and also is not strong enough to leech enough so you don't get killed if you don't have the right lvl and arts. So with this two nerfs you are affecting gravely low lvls and also ppl with high lvl but with bad arts.

So chooce only one of those two options to nerf. Also i want the numbers of how much power psg is using currently and how much will be with the proposed increase power use 50%, and the numbers of what you propose it could be for the add kinetic base tech.

Railgun:
Increase power cost 20%
Increase reloadTime 20%
Increase base damage 20%
Remove attack speed tech
Increase corrosive elite tech to 100%


I wan to see numbers with the proposed changes on this wep: i want to see the numbers for its currently power cost and what will be with the increase power of 20% proposed, the numbers of how will be its reload time with the 20% increase proposed, the numbers of its currently base damage and what will be with the increase of 20% you are proposing.

Teeth:
Remove attack speed tech
Reduce burn tech to 500%


Make the reduce burn et proposed and don't remove its attack speed tech, nerf its attack speed by 50% and apply both changes ONLY for PvP as penalties.

Player Nexar Vindicator:
Reduce base hp 15%
Reduce base sh 15%
Reduce base regen 15%
Reduce base armor 15%
Remove speed bonus of 6%


There's no need to remove vindi's speed if you are already nerfing vindi tp. Also, the majority here we have proposed to nerf vindi's base armor and leave the other base stats in 10% if i remember right... where is that change?

About smart guns and debuffers i like what myorum has suggested before, i also think there's no need to reduce the debuff time from 8 to 5 secs. There's no reason to continue with "reward the skill" point of view for the reasons i've already explained before, so leave them like what currently is the debuff time from all the debuffers you want to change, it's a terrible idea change them from 8 to 5 secs for all the new players and for the "not skilled" players.

Bella, i'm still waiting for an answer on the question i made about what will happen if we have an et that is going to be removed, i hope you have had the time to test it.

Whatever you do, don't fly into the sun.
#73214 by bolbi Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:23 am
@Ladelag I think you have the wrong idea of what the PvP modifiers do. When the system is calculating damage it will know if it's from another player or not, that is when the "PvP Damage Bonus/Reductions" would be made as such those changes can really only be Damage reductions or bonuses. So things like make Particle gun do 50% less RoF, in PvP won't work, the only thing is to make a damage reduction equivalent to that.

That all being said I'd like to make a few comments on some of the weapons you mentioned and why a PvP damage Reduction would be better than the current suggestions.

So about what the PvP damage nerf means to flat arts and why they're better effected by this nerf kind of nerf. As the PvP damage nerf calculation comes after the damage from arts is calculated, it will effect flat arts this way. For example Particle Gun, right now with the 30% PvP nerf a projectile does say 500 damage normally that's reduced to 350 but someone might have flats that boost the projectile damage to say 2,500 per hit, now that 30% nerf only brings it down to 1,750 per hit.

The other thing is that, where % damage and Attack speed arts you can find a middle ground where there is a best damage output, but with flats and attack speed, every extra projectile you can add is increasing the amount of damage you get from flats by 100% as such it makes it much harder to get that happy medium and extra flat damage literally multiplies the damage you get. So any weapon with a 50% attack speed tech is getting 2x the projectiles, whereas a 35% attack speed tech is about 1.5x the projectiles. Basically I'm trying to say for balancing weapons that are good with % damage arts you can do 3 things to reduce the damage, reduce the attack speed (amount of projectiles in a second), give it a PvP damage reduction (so as not to harm the PvE aspects of the weapon), or reduce base damage (making % damage arts less effective). And with weapons overpowered because of flat arts there is only 2 ways, Reduce the attack speed (again amount of projectiles it can shoot in a period of time), or give it a PvP damage nerf (making flats have less an effect in the damage)

So most of the weapons like PSG and Particle gun for example, are really overpowered because of their high attack speeds and lack of enough of a PvP damage nerf.

- Particle Gun
This weapon, as far as I'm aware, is really only broken, as Ladelag said, in the 100+ PvP level, when people are getting crazy high flat corrosive arts. I feel it is more appropriate to issue a PvP damage nerf here instead. From what I understand this weapon is really only devastating with the attack speed tech. So, as far as I know, it currently has a damage reduction of 30% so I think that should just be reduced to like 50-60% and we'd be fine, also the other changes could be thrown out as they are more for comprising that it wasn't getting a further PvP damage nerf.

So my change for this
Increase PvP damage reduction further from 30% to 60%

Everything else doesn't need changes as it'll be fine cause it'll do way less damage then currently.

- Plankton Siphon Gland
Again as Ladelag said, it is really only overpowered at the high levels with decent arts. As such a PvP damage nerf seems better to me, so again instead of most of the proposed changes I'd say bring it down with a PvP damage nerf of 20% or so.

So I'd say it should look like this.
Reduce attack speed tech to from 50% to 40%
Reduce range tech from 75% to 40%
Add kinetic base tech
Reduce PvP damage by 20%

I did some calculations and this is what I believe will be the effects of the changes

Relative to level 6 PSG. these are the % of damage you get from flat arts with those techs (at no focus)
Level 6 = 100%
current attack speed tech = 200%
suggested changes (version 5) = 100%
suggested changes (version 5) with attack speed tech = approx. 150%
my suggestion level 6 = 80%
my suggestions with attack speed tech = 133%

And the total projectile increase effect you'll get from attack speed arts relative to the current level 6 PSG
Level 6 = 100%
current attack speed tech = 200%
suggested changes (version 5) Level 6 = 100%
suggested changes (version 5) with attack speed tech = approx. 150%
my suggestion level 6 = 100%
my suggestions with attack speed tech = approx. 167%

Remember it also focuses which is 4x damage at full focus that being said focus rate is also effected by the reduced attack speed tech, this is the focus rates compared to the current level 6 PSG

Level 6 = 1x
current attack speed tech = 2x
suggested changes (version 5) level 6 = 1x
suggested changes (version 5) with attack speed tech = approx. 1.5x
my suggestion level 6 = 1x
my suggestions with attack speed tech = approx. 1.67x

Might have gone a bit overboard and complicated it for some of you, but in essence, the first is how good flats become and how effective with different changes. The second is how good attack speed arts become and how effective with the different changes. The third is how the focus rates change with the changes. So I'm basically substituting a faster focus rate for lower damage in my suggestions. while letting attack speed arts stay a little more effective to the DPS and making flats less a factor for getting more DPS. I'll try to explain better if anyone wants me to just give me some specifics of what you want me to explain about my suggestion.

- Corrosive Lightning
I believe the changes are fine, basically it only nerfs CL in that the DoT stacks 20% slower and the DoT lasts one second less. That means that with the attack speed tech it will be stacking approx. 1.25x as fast as it does now at level 6 without attack speed tech, as opposed to approx. 1.5x as fast as level 6 when it has attack speed tech, which is what it is now. I honestly believe this will be fine however I do agree in that a PvP damage nerf could work here instead about 25% I'd say, 20% if we leave the suggested 4 second DoT time.

In other words:
Reduce PvP damage by 25%
Increase dot tech from 35% to 60%

OR

Reduce PvP damage by 20%
Reduce DoT duration from 5 to 4 seconds
Increase dot tech from 35% to 60%

OR

Version 5 changes
Increase reloadTime 20%
Increase dot tech from 35% to 60%
Reduce dot duration from 5 to 4 seconds
Increase power use 20%

I don't really know how much an effect the "Increase dot tech from 35% to 60%" will have on the other suggestions though I think it's fine to leave that change anyways, as currently % damage arts don't do much for this weapon.

Elctro Field
I believe we discussed the adding of a projectiles tech already, it should make the weapon do less damage than with the Direct Damage tech so in my opinion 37.5% less damage per projectile at level 100

Level 6 = 100% damage
current Direct damage tech = 150% damage
my suggested Projectile tech amount = 125% damage

Remember the point I think we agreed to adding the projectile tech was so that less successful stomps would have more projectiles hitting, but this should not mean it also gets as much or more damage then the Direct Damage tech.

I'll try to show the damage similar to how I did with PSG
% is the total damage relative to level 6. Note: the "(xxx%)" represents PvP damage

Current
Level 6 = 100%
with DD tech = 150%

With changes (version 5)
Level 6 = 160% (80%)
with DD tech = 240% (120%)
with my suggestion of Projectiles tech = 200% (100%)

Again that's relative to today's EF at level 6

For Photonic Blaster and Teeth they both have a projectiles tech I believe the point was to make you use the projectiles tech instead which means they aren't as effective as a % weapon but still do well as a flat weapon. Basically I see it this way when you have a weapon with a projectiles tech that doubles the projectiles for the cost of spread and less damage per projectile (like these 2 weapons), and at the same time those weapons have an attack speed tech that doubles their projectiles per second with no increased spread or reduced damage something needs to be removed or changed. In this case these changes should make these 2 weapons less damaging and fix the fact that there's no point to having a projectiles tech. Honestly if we are fine with them still being fairly powerful with a % damage build then the attack speed tech could be reduced to 25-35% instead of completely removing it.
Last edited by bolbi on Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

" 'Whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them.'
(International Standard Version, Luke 6.31)"
#73215 by mt10kardans Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:19 am
I dont understand all these changes. To me it looks like mudzji madzji. Why cant just make pvp nerfs for most broken weps. Why its posible do just pvp nerfs for some weps but for others dont. If EF gets extra projectiles et then it will do more damage than direct et if all projectiles hit target. I think its case with every wep whitch have extra projectile tech. In my opinion you can even increase its aoe for exe farming(for example) if it gets proper pvp nerf not this increase base damage 60% and 50% pvp nerf whitch results 10% buff or whatever that means. Fish for example gets nerfed more because some players ar lazy or dont want change his one of broken wep slot to caunter it. I have good idea make nova disable ef for 3 secs too so players dont get one shooted every 3 secs in dm...
#73230 by bolbi Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:08 pm
TheSupreme wrote:Fix for Electo field
Make it a charge weapon.

Ahh yes that was brought up by someone earlier in this thread, I'm still behind that kind of change to EF. It would really only need that one change and it'd be fine most likely.

" 'Whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them.'
(International Standard Version, Luke 6.31)"
#73232 by Myorum Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:20 pm
@ladelag + bolbi

U missunderstood some of the increased power use values I think.
If u increase the reload time u also reduce the power use, so u have to compensate that.
Scythe explained it somewhere early in this thread after I asked something in that direction.

PSG:

As far as I got told the formula for RoF ET's strength calculation is 1/(1-x).
And a fast test with 40% and 50% ET's confirmed it. So it seems accurate.
That means 50% RoF ET results in 100% higher firerate.
Whereas 40% RoF ET results still in 66.6% higher firerate.
And 35% RoF ET results only in 53.8% higher firerate.

I also just tested out that RoF mechanics in general seem to follow this formula:
(BaseDPS / (1 + Ship RoF)) x (1 + Ship RoF + Art's RoF) x (1 / (1 - Power ET RoF)) x (1 / (1 - Weapon ET RoF)) = DPS
Example for better understanding (Vindicator, 45.1% RoF from arts, Particle Gun):
(191260.5 / (1 + 0.3)) x (1 + 0.3 + 0.451) x (1 / (1 - 0.15)) x (1 / (1 - 0.4)) = 505123.885
In my test this was very accurate for the real values (505131.4).
That is a negligible deviation.

Important Notes:
- Since the Vindi's and other ship's base values are already included in the values shown ingame on the weapon and u cant interchange it within the formula because its summed up with the Art's RoF u have to divide through it first before u apply the formula.
- BaseDPS means without RoF ET's and RoF Arts.
- Troons and Level bonuses are not regarded.

Meh, just for fun I also tested how the formula for % and flat damage looks like:
BaseDPS x (((((DPH - Ship flat) / (1 + Ship %)) x (1 + Ship % + Art's %) + Ship flat + Art's flat) x (1 + Weapon ET %) x (1 + Power ET %)) / DPH)
Was also pretty accurate.
Deviation was 1.9%.

Important Notes:
- Got pretty complicated because I wanted to calculate it without including RoF. That way u can calculate the effects of Rof and damage independently from each other. Furthermore u can take only a part of this formula to calculate the damage per hit too.
- If there is more than one damage type u just have to calculate the damage for each and sum them up before u divide them through the likewise summed up Shown Basedmg. Afterwards u multiplicate the result like always with the BaseDPS.
- I have only tested weapon ET's that add % damage. I suspect that u can replace it with the calculated bonus damage from Extra Projectiles ET's (200% - 2 x % malus on each projectile = Replace value). I havent tested ET's that add flat damage.
- Shown Basedmg and BaseDPS mean without % ET's and % or flat Arts.
- Troons and Level bonuses are not regarded.

So, I got a tiny bit sidetracked XD.
Well, at least u can now all discuss about the mechanics if u want :P
Anyways, ur numbers are about correct bolbi, in case someone wonders.

But I dont understand why u bring up the amount of projectiles here. Whether u are using % or flat damage, double the firerate and u double the damage. The only difference is, that with flat arts u can get very high damage increases in relation to the base dmg. Way higher than with % arts. but since we are talking about weapons that are only good with one of both art types and the discussion is focused on the damage this seems pretty irrelevant to me. So if i missed something there please tell me.

And I think u made a mistake in the focus rates. The numbers itself are fine, but u looked at the wrong part.
Based on what Scythe wrote earlier about the focus mechanics (Burn factor), it takes a certain amount of hits to reach the maximum focus. The current suggestion will based on my calculations reduce the current firerate by 23%. Ur suggestion would reduce it by 16.5%. So it will take about 30%, respectively 20%, longer to reach the maximum focus.

So I'd suggest something like this to save PvE use:

Add a PvP penalty of 30%
Reduce range tech from 75% to 40%
Increase power use 50%
Add kinetic base tech

CL:

First, with the current suggestions the firerate will be, compared to level 6, 1.23 times faster.
There u are correct. But atm, its compared to level 6, 2 times faster. Not 1.5 times.
So it will stack 38.5% slower with the current changes.
Additional the dot does 20% less damage.
Result: The damage gets halfed.

So to not affect PvE I'd suggest a PvP penalty of 40%.
The other values can stay as they are.

Sidenote:
I tested the Increase DoT ET once and with the suggested value it could become useful for % users.

EF:

My opinion is still to keep the current AoE range and nerf the PvP damage more than suggested now.
The increased base damage is in my opinion a compensation for the increased reload time.
Though it shouldnt be that high then. It should compensate it not buff it, so that its DPS remains unchanged in PvE.

HF:

Here I also still believe the nerf should be higher.
And again, why not just a PvP penalty to keep it unchanged for PvE?

Teeth/Photons:

I dont know about Photons, but Teeth remain even with the Extra Projectiles ET clearly a % weapon.
That aside, iirc the reason behind removing the RoF ET was to make people use the Projectiles ET, which will have a wider spread to compensate a bit for the high damage. Though i just had to wonder why not remove the slight damage penalty on the Projectiles ET then? The wider spread alone will reduce the damage already.
And the Burn ET gets nerfed too. So why not change it to this:

Remove attack speed tech
Reduce burn tech to 500%
Remove damage penalty from Projectiles ET

@mt10kardans

With an appropriate damage penalty the Extra Projectiles ET on EF wont do more damage than the DD ET.
And the base damage buff combined with the PvP penalty currently results in 20% less damage than now in PvP.

@TheSupreme

I already suggested several pages ago to make EF chargeable...

Conclusion:

If I calculated something wrong or made otherwise a mistake please tell me :)
Last edited by Myorum on Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:52 pm, edited 5 times in total.

That which we call a rose would smell as sweet by any other name.
Best Arts-Thread
#73235 by bolbi Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:00 am
I think we might be going a bit overboard on the thinking now, I was trying to mainly get accross that for weapons that benefit from flat arts attack speed and PvP damage reductions are the only way to nerf these weapons.

@Myorum
With PSG focus I was basically taking the numbers and saying that each would focus x times as fast as level 6 would, I think you just took it a step further and got the % difference in time it takes to reach max focus. Whereas I just was saying how much faster it is from 0 focus to +100%.

Also I brought up amount of projectiles cause with flats reaching almost or higher than 2k at top level on things like Photons, Teeth, or Particle Gun, with the high projectiles per second they have that can mean the dofference between 100 projectiles a second down to 50 projectiles a second, cutting the effectiveness of flats in half in that example. Which, ues that also effects % art damage however if that needs compensating we can increase the base damage and now flats are still doing way less but % arts have more base damage to work with.

Also about the power use, I don't believe I was leaving out anything on those the only ones were
Particle Gun, which the increase power usage was as a nerf not compensating for anything else.
PSG, which, if I haven't expressed already, I don't think needs anymore power usage just less damage and you can't really say it's compensating for the lowered attack speed tech cause that is a tech the power use should not be used to compensate for one tech, and I believe this is only there cause a PvP damage reduction was frowned upon at the start of this thread.
And CL, which the power useage was only meant to compensate lower base RoF, which I totally agree with but all the suggestions I listed threw away that reduced base RoF so I in turn threw away the power usage nerf.

So basically all I wanted to get across in that post was flats ate nuts on certain weapons, and woth the exception of Photons and Teeth (I'll explaon below) I'd say % damage builds with these weapons are either underpowered or fine as is.

So to go over the ones I believe could have changes made to the current suggestions

- CL
IMO it could do with the overall nerf it has now, however I'd also be fine with just a PvP damage nerf instead whatever seems fair I'd say somewhere between 25% to a max of 40% reduced PvP damage.

- Particle Gun
It has high projectile per second numbers with the attack speed tech so I'd say it could just have something like

Reduce attack speed tech from 40% to 25% (or 35%)
Base RoF reduced by 25%
Increase base damage by 25%
And change burn tech to compensate.

That makes flat builds with this weapon, not including the attack speed tech changes, 25% less DPS while leaving it pretty close to the same for % arts. And it would give the attack speed tech a merf which I think it needs personally.

- PSG
Like I've said before I like this weapon as it is with % arts, and think it's only way overpowered when you use it with flat arts. So I've come up with a different possible solution that I prefer.

Reduce base Rof by 50%
Increase base Focus rate by 100% to compensate
Increase base damage by 100% to compensate
Reduce range tech from 75% to 40%
Add kinetic base option

I am still on the side of PSG is a fine PvE weapon solely for it's intended purpose, to leech. Therefore I don't feel bad making flats way less useful on this weapon. The only reason this weapon is because of the change to flat arts, if that had not happened it'd still be in the bottom of the pile for PvP weapons. And as I've said before I would prefer PSG to take forever to kill something, but because it's leech is so good you should find it hard to die to enemies that don't debuff healing. In other words I think PSG is supposed to be a low tier weapon that got up into the top tier of weapons because of a change to arts, as such I don't think it deserves to stay this powerful amd should go back down to where it was before.

- Photons and Teeth
From what I remember thinking when I was using Photons was that these things are way to strong, both for flat and % builds my normal builds for flat and % were getting around 2 million DPS with photons with the attack speed tech, the burn is also strong but the DPS you get with the attack speed tech is just nuts. That is the main reason I think the change as is now is fine cause it removes a way to powerful tech and if you want that effect you can use a less accurate projectiles tech instead, which is still good for flat builds but is just slightly worse for % builds. I assume that Teeth and Photons act pretty much the same, as from experience fighting them they seem about equal even though they have a bit different stats.

" 'Whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them.'
(International Standard Version, Luke 6.31)"
#73238 by Bellatrix Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:16 am
ladelag wrote:Like i've already said on a previous post, there's no reason to continuing with this "reward skill" direction for the next balance update, is not something WE the majority support and it's unfair to keep this direction only for one player personal point of view (could be more that one but still is not the majority).


I really dont see a majority saying that they want more auto aim heavy damage weapons in pvp, where did you see this? Is not the point for pvp to reward skill? Why not then just buff neutron, give it x2 longer range and x5 higher damage and let everyone go bananas?

ladelag wrote:Bella, i'm still waiting for an answer on the question i made about what will happen if we have an et that is going to be removed, i hope you have had the time to test it.


I have explained this, when the test server with these changes gets released I will answer you, we have no possibility to test this right now.

Bellatrix, the shinning star of Astroflux
#73242 by BrianN Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:11 pm
No Scythe replies worth a darn since July...by 'preliminary' do you mean 'coming soon' which means we should take bets on weather Trump is out of the white house first or the balance is done?

The truth always lies between the two ends of an argument.

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AstroFlux is a MMO space shooter with numerous weapons, upgrades and abilities. Explore the galaxy and collect space junk to gain resources for new technologies.