For AstroFlux related discussion
#73069 by bolbi Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:27 am
I think the key word in there is "need" Brian cause from my standpoint they might bring them a little closer to balanced between some other weapons. Like I'd say Prisms don't need as much of a PvP penalty as they have now but that might change after Teeth and Photons get changed, it'll be good to have the other one in the plans to enable us to balance out the changes we make in the high priorities balance if we find many imbalances after the fact. And I honestly think many of the changes are 'ok' as in they won't mess with a ton of much used weapons, and they make a few weapons stronger like they should be, like the Nukes. I would think of it as this is a follow up on the high priorities to make sure they are balanced and to then bring up some stuff that is underpowered at the moment, obviously we should discuss the weapon changes after the first update to see if any comparisons have changed.

In light of knowing that these are going to be split in two, I'd say we should shift the discussion more towards the stuff under the first change, then we can come back to the lower priority stuff. So I'll give my opinions on the changes so far and anything I don't mention is because I think the changes for that weapon/ship are fine as is.

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Miscellaneous:

- Show correct and accurate stats for ships
- Make options for kinetic burn
- Display PvP damage modifiers for weapons ingame
- Reduce focus duration by 50%
- Guided weapons vanish on death
Not much to say except that I think all these are good.

- Reduce regen contribution factor from convert arts to 0.05%
I think the idea is fair, make convert builds less effective in that they get less regen. Scythe could you please give us some numbers on this, cause all my calculations say that regen you get from shield created via conversion, is about 1.1625% of that total shield. From all that I've done Convert arts have no connections to the regen stat that a ship has. Assuming I'm correct this suggestion basically halves the current amount of regen you get from converting. EDIT: (finishing the thought) This would be good as regen is better for ships with good regen stats not ships that have good HP stats, which is what it is now.

- Reduce artifact conversion factor from convert arts by 10%
thinking about this more I'm not to sure how I feel about it. It will effect every ship in the game, a ship like Judicator will be stronger because it's already decent as a shield build ship, from what I've seen, and now other shield builds using convert are gonna be much weaker. It will also make most every ship much weaker than it is now, making newbies suffer even harder once they get to Fulzar and endgame content. So I would be against this change as it is a huge changer for all weapons and ships. this should be brought up another time in my opinion. I agree that convert builds need nerfing, however where we are now with convert builds is what we are comparing weapons to, and that makes it harder to judge what's fair and what isn't. So I suggest leaving this for another time when we won't be changing many weapons and can get it changed back if it causes to many problems.

- Increase hp regen tech from 1.5% to 3%
If you make it debuffable with heal or regen debuff fine. Otherwise I think a max of 2%. Doubling it, as you suggested, would mean a 300,000 hp build gets 9,000 un-debuffable regen. On a shield build yes you get less base regen, but you can up that with arts and/or an ET to triple that base. Making a strong HP regen build would be hard to do and take really good arts, however arts are random and making a build with decent armor and that constant regen could be very OP in my eyes. I would say lower the suggestion or make heal debuffs stop hp regen not just leech.

Are all of miscellaneous suggested to happen at the same time as the high priority changes?

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- Acid Spore
I'm waiting to see the numbers that make you want to reduce the Direct damage tech to 75%, from what Myorum has posted I would agree with his reduce the tech to 100% instead.

- Aureus Drone Controller
I'd say that's okay as long as the AI is at least as competent as the enemy. Also I have always thought shouldn't the attack speed tech just been reduced from 50% to 35%. And if that's not enough then reduce damage by only 25% and you get practically the same result as the 50% less damage, except that the other ETs can still do some damage. EDIT: Also note that the direct damage tech should probably be lowered from 75% to 50% to be equal, approximately, to the change of the attack speed tech.

- Beamer
@Myorum I'd say the range is fine, the focus duration nerf will hamper it fairly decently in the chase and getting away aspect I believe. Right now I can barely teleport and keep a focus, I'd say it loses focus after at most a second of not hitting anything. After this you would pretty much only get chain kills from focusing beamer if it's against a group that doesn't disperse from each other.

- Bionic Teleport
Does it really use to much power currently? I feel like as Larva is a free ship you shouldn't make its teleport use to little power, you can get 2 teleports on the thing remember. Edit: I mention 2 teleports in that one could be used for no power use but be w tiny bit slower in the channeling, and the other fast channeling but high power use.

- Electro Field
The only thing I'm very concerned about right now on this is the AoE for the start of the projectiles. As in, as long as the range at which the projectiles/hitboxes start is going to remain the same, it is fine with those changes. @Scythe I'm not quite sure how to interpret your post explaining the AoE I think you were saying it will remain unchanged, but I was very unsure. Also I stay on the side that it should have lower damage like 60-70% of what it is before these changes, however I still feel it will be enough to at least test and see if it will suffice and solve the problem.

- Flame Trail
I said it earlier on in this thread, if the visual bug of it not appearing is fixed, I'd say this is fine without changes, however in place of that I think these changes will suffice.

- Golden Ram Missiles Se-24
As I think I've stated before, as long as this is going to keep them slightly more damaging than regular Ram Missiles, then these changes are fine.

- Hell Flames
@Myorum for burns the max damage they can do is more dependent on their Burn damage rather than their RoF, as I understand it, the changes will basically make it stack slower and start lower, so basically the second thing you said. Not sure on the reducing direct damage, it's hard to tell right now cause DoT is very high, would be good to get some numbers to determine this if anyone is willing.

- Hunter-Killer Launcher
As long as that acceleration factor makes up for or beats the lowered speed, those changes are fine. However I agree with hugojamia, the lowered time on the debuff will make these much less useful in PvE. If I had my way I'd say leave the debuff time reduction at 8 seconds, or just removing that suggestion altogether.

- Kinetic Phase Blade
I'd like to know what degree it has set for it now, I've seen 180 degrees said the most, however the thing can lock on backwards sometimes it would seem, so I'm not sure. if it is indeed 180 then I think reducing it to 75-90 degrees is better.

- Particle Gun
I think we could just add in a reduce PvP damage by 30% and remove the attack speed tech and it would be balanced IMO.

- Piraya
I think if you just add the shake off feature it'd be fine as is without changes, that plus the fact that they would disappear on death of the user would more than balance these out IMO.

- Plankton Siphon Gland
I like the changes it has as of version 5, level 6 Siphon isn't super OP it's the ETs that make it OP which is why I like the nerfs as is. Also I think the leech is only a problem because of the added High damage. @Myorum it doesn't need more focus it has 3x damage right now (if I'm remembering correctly) and sometimes that will feel to strong, it doesn't need to get stronger damage.

- Snow Cannon
just making it clear, we're suggesting changing it to 45% resist with the resist debuff tech, correct? Also would be good to note that to give some balance we might consider making Poison Arrow transferable, that way there is a Corrosive long range option that can have a resist debuff, and can deal damage of that type.

- Spike Strips
If "pop bonus" refers to the PvP damage bonus, then good, I am fine with those changes.

- Vindicator Cluster Missiles
I think the 20% damage reduction is fine, they do a bit to much damage for how much of a burst type weapon they are. Edit: As in you only shoot one volley and that can be over 100K damage when all hit on a full resist player, I know that because Snake has one shot me before with them, obviously I'm not including that he probably has good if not great arts for that kind of setup, but it is rather strong when you can garuntee a hit with it by using it close range and then switch to another high DPS weapon.

- Vindicator Projector
I think I've said it before, just have it increase in damage from like 10% no charge, to 100% full charge, and increase charging time by a tiny bit, like 0.5-1 seconds extra, and it will be fine.

- Smart Guns

5 seconds seems short, but would put less priority on them as weapons. Also the damage nerf effects their already pretty below average armor debuff ET as well, possibly increase that from 6% to like 7-8% to compensate. Otherwise I think these changes are reasonably fair, still don't know about increasing the power use by that much, they already seem pretty power hungry.

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- Vindicator
I think the speed bonus can stay if the armor is lowered to at least 20% of what it is now, I like Myorum's suggestion for reductions of 10% Hp, 10% shield, 10% Regen, and 20% Armor and then leave the speed bonus. If you don't like that Idea, then leaving it as it is would be fine with me as well.

- Tanker
I personally would prefer Tanker with the changes as of Version 5, however it would seem most people want to keep some cooldown on Tanker, if that's the case I suggest

Reduce cooldown to 10%
Reduce speed from -20% to -25% (edit: if not -30%)
Increase shield regen to 10

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- Chrono Beam
This change should be put in with the "High priority" changes, If we are saying Aureus Beam is dealing 15% to much damage then why isn't the stronger of the two energy Beams also seen as high priority with to much damage? Edit: I realize that Aureus Beam is a little more useful with the fact that it has many different debuffs it can apply, however the fact about damage being higher on Chrono still applys.

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I'm gonna say it again, the changes we make in this first part will most certainly effect our thoughts on the stuff in the second part of the changes. ("Lower priority changes") So I believe this discussion should be left open for discussing the 2nd part if or when we get there. Edit: I'm just trying to make sure it is clear that the second part of these suggestions should not be locked in prior to the first part being implemented, feelings and thoughts on certain weapons will change after all of the changes are made.

" 'Whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them.'
(International Standard Version, Luke 6.31)"
#73072 by bolbi Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:17 am
Okay I wasn't sure, as I've never really upgraded Larva so I can't make a real informed decision about it. I had the impression that it didn't use as much power as teleport so I wasn't really sure if the suggestion made was a sound one. From the way you worded that, I'm assuming you believe it to be at the very least acceptable so the changes to Bionic Teleport are fine by me as long as no one else says they're strongly against it.

" 'Whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them.'
(International Standard Version, Luke 6.31)"
#73081 by Myorum Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:35 pm
@Bolbi

Beamer:
Ok, then I guess its fine. I just remembered how sometimes the range of Beamer made it hard to fly tactically clever against its user because u were more or less always in range, especially with a slower ship like Nox.

Hell Flames:
Base on what u wrote I get the impression the burn on them isnt affected by the direct damage? If thats the case change my damage nerf suggestion to a dot nerf suggestion. Because if I'm right with my second guess, like u think too, the current burn nerf wont be enough.

Partcile Gun:
As u worder it I got the impression u wanna remove the Attack Speed ET and give it a PvP penalty.
Is that right? Because with a PvP penalty I would say u can keep the ET, as long as the nerf is stron enough.
And its a very helpful ET for new players that bought the Starter Pack.

PSG:
U forgot my penalty in what u said. My intention was to decrease firerate and increase focus like on KPB, so that the buildup takes longer but reaches the same damage. And then to add in a PvP penalty to reduce damage and leech in one go, making it much simpler than whats currently suggested.

Projectors:
Since u brought up making Arrow copyable, what u think of my Nexar Projector suggestion?

Smart Guns:
What u think of my suggestions there?
And I agree, u have to increase the armor debuff, if u lower the base damage.
Missed that when I contemplated about them.

Vindi Missiles:
Wasnt aware of that. Then I agree with u.

General and @Bolbi

I would say reducing the shield regen has a higher impact on the balance than a bit less maximum shield/health. Because thats a very important part for shield builds being able to survive. It would hit the PvE even harder than the PvP, since people use debuffers in PvP. If u lower that u have to rethink the balance of a lot of weapons, because the regen increases the time, ur shield lasts against a player, drastically, if its not debuffed. A good example several of u can agree on I think is Astrolance/TehZhredder. And rebalancing it against armor builds is not even included! It will lower all shield builds compared to armor builds!

If u lower the maximum health/shield a bit, u only have to reduce the base values of those few ships by about 7.5%, that are better off with no converter. Though since u wanna change the importance of converters, that will have nearly to no impact on their use, since they will still be a must for most ships.

Conclusion?
Reducing the regen will result in a huge disbalancing of the diffrent ships compared to know.
And changing the conversion factor will, besides weakening all, dont have an impact at all.

And additional to that, u wanna give armor builds even higher regen.
And I can tell u, with about 300k shields and 100% shield regen from arts I am still below the 9k regen a health build could reach then (On my Nox with PvP setup I reach 7.5k). And that shall make the gameplay fairer? I dont think so.

I can understand that u wanna make converters less important, but since u let the cat out of the bag with implementing them, u cant solve this with just a bit of tweaking without severe consequences. The only way to adjust this is in a seperate update, and with a better idea than what u proposed.

Result:
- Reduce regen contribution from convert arts to 0.5%
- Reduce artifact conversion factor from convert arts by 10%
Remove these changes.
The only thing we can talk about is the Hp-Regen ET with Bolbis suggestion.
- Increase hp regen tech from 1.5% to 2%

Btw, thx Bolbi, that with u finally someone looked into this.
I cant understand why people wont see the major consequences this will have.

Sidenote:
I'm still waiting to get my questions answered. Next time u mention a new mechanic, immediately explain it please, Scythe.
That saves us all a LOT of questions. And makes judging changes much easier.

Also theres a bug in the art window.
All damage flat and % art's values arent shown correctly on the right side.
All flats are way too high and all % too low.

That which we call a rose would smell as sweet by any other name.
Best Arts-Thread
#73084 by bolbi Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:56 am
@Myorum and kinda everyone else

- Beamer
Well if you are just talking about just me, then remember I normally use the range tech on Beamer. Although I think the focus duration and aim arc nerfs make up for not reducing range, as turning and keeping it focused will be much harder. Although as I've said previously this is one of my main weapons at the moment, so do keep that in mind when you're reading my suggestions for Beamer. Mostly because it's rather hard for me to decide at what strength Beamer should be, and if my suggestions would leave it to strong in the eyes of others.

- Hell Flames
As far as I'm aware the burn DoT and direct damages are independent of one another. Also I've still not quite grasped how burn works entirely but from what I've tested, it would seem that in most occasions a higher burn stat (the amount displayed on the tool tip) is, in general, going to give higher burn damage than mixing in more RoF. However I also believe that lower a lower burn stat doesn't stack on quite as well, so it might result in more than just a 25%-ish DoT Nerf, but I'm unsure on that theory. Also I'm not sure how it will go as there is also the fact that it has high power use so you don't get as many shots as before. I'm more waiting to see what Scythe says about this one cause I'm one who's only been on the receiving end of this weapon, as such I don't have a great idea of what would nerf it well.

- Particle Gun
I'm not quite sure I'd prefer it to go back to being near useless in PvP, however I'm unsure on if 30% is enough for the power it can reach with the attack speed tech, remember 50% attack speed doubles the projectiles, that combined with the high flat arts that we have now make it very powerful. So if you wan't to keep the attack speed ET I'd say reduce it's PvP damage to 50%.

- PSG
Plankton Siphon Gland:
Reduce attackspeed tech to from 50% to 35%
Reduce range tech from 75% to 40%
Increase power use 50%
Increase maximum focus by 100%
Add PvP damage penalty of 30%

There is no decrease firerate suggestion in here (other than the tech), either way I think PSG shouldn't be as powerful as it is now. I think I said it somewhere early on in this thread, I'd prefer PSG to go back to no damage, high heal like it was before changing flat arts, now it's good damage, really high heal. So as a matter of preference, I'd want to bring the damage on it down but keep it's leech pretty high for PvE as well, that's how I see the weapon, it should take you forever and a day to kill something using it but you should be pretty safe doing it cause of the 360 aim and high leech. With your suggestion it raises the PvE damage of a level 6 PSG by 33%, so all you're doing essentially is making it even stronger for PvE by doing that, which I don't think is a good direction.

Again I don't mind the changes Scythe has, however these are my preferred suggestions

Reduce attackspeed tech from 50% to 35%
Reduce range tech from 75% to 40%
Reduce refire by 25%
Increase focus by 25% to compensate for refire nerf

That's what I would want, I know I said the level 6 PSG is fine, but honestly the only way to make flats not super powerful on this weapon is to reduce it's firerate.

Sidenote: the base leech is 15% health 10% shield (Shield leech value is always 2/3rds of health leech) so I'm confused on what the suggestion of reducing base leech to 20% means.

- Smart Guns
I do like your suggestions, as I think the suggestions right now put Smart guns to a level where no one would use them after the update, your suggestion gives them a slight chance of still being useful. The only thing in your suggestions for Smart Guns would be the add resist debuffs to their ETs, I think this would make them a viable option in some cases, however it also makes Blue or Yellow with resist ET more appealing as regen and damage are pretty good debuffs, whereas heal is kinda niche in it's applications.

- Projectors
I think it should be around 15-20% speed on levels 3 and 6 instead, fully charged Vindi Projector seems the same or slower than a fully charged Nexar Projector. And with that I would say reduce the speed tech to 25%. And I would remove the damage increase as, with a projectile speed increase, the weapon will be much easier to hit with. So something like this

Change energy-kinetic to corrosive-kinetic damage
Change add corro ET to add energy ET
Change energy DoT ET to corrosive DoT ET
Increase Speed by 15% at level 3 and 6 (total 30%)
Reduce Speed tech from 50% to 25% to compensate

Also I brought up arrow being transferable because, there is already Aureus Beam which is a energy damage, long range weapon with a possible energy resist debuff of 45%, then there is Snow Cannon a kinetic damage, long range, weapon with a suggested kinetic resist debuff tech of 45%, and both are ship specific, albeit one is not purchasable by flux, but then we're suggesting changing Poison Arrow to be like them, so why not change that to transferable while we're at it.

Other stuff

I must say I didn't think about the regen thing to much but I could say, to counter your point, it would make the use of regen arts more needed to make a good shield build. Although running the numbers, I'd say more like changing it to something between 1% and 0.75% would do that job better.

Thinking over the change to convert arts a little more, I'm starting to see it how you do, in that it won't be a huge problem but it would be a problem nonetheless.

As such I agree at least both these suggestions should be done at a later time if they are going to happen not right now with the weapons and such.

" 'Whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them.'
(International Standard Version, Luke 6.31)"
#73150 by Myorum Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:00 pm
Well, how high the end values are is up to discussion Bolbi :)

Particle Gun:
Though I'd probably start with 40% penalty on Particle Gun to avoid going overboard.
If u insist it should be higher than 30%. And dont forget, it will reduce 30% of the damage WITH RoF ET.

PSG:
And on PSG the RoF ET is currently the must have, not? So I calculated it into my suggestion.
My main idea is basically to keep it like it is, since u could adjust it with only a penalty for PvP.
Afterall, less damage means less leech, so it would do less damage and healing in PvP with it.

Smart Guns:
Well its the most balance version I could think off. Nothing is perfect after all^^
And it should at least be more usable than the current Red Smart gun.

Nexar Projector:
U forgot that my suggestion included removing the Speed ET. And I compared the base speeds of Vindi/Nexar Projector and looked at the bonus the levels give. My calculation was absed on that. Though since the Vindi Projector doesnt have a Speed ET u could also just add the Nexar Projector's 40% (so 20% at level 3 and 6) to the base values it has without an ET, in case someone finds my 50% too strong. And remove the ET then of course. About the damage buff, I think its fine, because I tested it with the Corro ET and got about 115k damage per shot iirc. And since with the changed base values u only get half of that (the ET adds 100% of both base dmg types) it seems fine to me compared to other projectors, or not? Considering I use it with the same very good art's set up as Acid Spore.

Arrow:
Hmm, stated that way why not. I still are more for my Nexar Projector because it helps corrosive AND kinetic getting a good for all avalaible projector. I mean, u cant call Snow Cannon freely avalaible^^

Regen change:
U forget, that when u have to compensate the current regen with arts, it will still influence the general PvE performance and the balance in regards to armor builds. Since u have to use less damage then. U cant just add more regen with arts without reducing an other value.

Sidenote:
I always wondered and are not entirely sure how it works, but are these PvP penalties only applied in the arena or also in the normal PvP systems? It would be good to know how the situation is there, because it influences the balancing.

And please set Nexar Projector to priority one, as it is intended to fill a gap that would help corro/kin builds a lot.

And as someone earlier explained, Chrono Beam should be priority one too.

That which we call a rose would smell as sweet by any other name.
Best Arts-Thread
#73151 by bolbi Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:57 pm
I feel like my views on PSG and Particle gun are in the minority, I have fond memories of using PSG before it was turned into a monster with the flat art changes, as such I like that version of it better. On particle gun if you leave the attack speed tech then the damage from that tech is 200% of level 6, so 70% of that is 140% of level 6, my suggestion was just to keep it down to level 6 damage cause otherwise, I feel it's to strong, again me wanting it to go back to a PvE weapon, rather than a PvP weapon.

On the projectors I tested them at level 0, so before any changes to their speed, so that's why I said lower your suggested speed bonus for nexar projector. Also not sure, that sounds okay but you have to remember to calculate in the damage from the other type as well, if you already were then I tentatively agree the damage increase can stay, only cause remember the ET comes after the damage increase so it'll be 150% of what it is now with the direct damage ET.

On the Regen thing, I meant that it will kind of balance it ou r a tiny bit, if done right, because right now regen art stats are next to useles, IMO, this would make it needed to use at least some regen. As in the great upside to shield builds right now is that you really don't have to worry about that extra stat (armor for HP or regen for shield) so you can focus more on damage. Again only if done correctly, because right now I see it as being only slightly more of an advantage using shield builds, as really the only OP armor ship, Vindi, is being nerfed.

On the PvP damage modifiers, they are taken into account if it is a player taking damage from another player, (mych like how you can only have 50% resist against player damage) so it would apply any time a player hits another player with a weapon with the PvP modifier.

" 'Whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them.'
(International Standard Version, Luke 6.31)"
#73152 by Myorum Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:16 am
Ok, to clarify Nexar Projector:

Currently it has energy/kinetic base damage. Corrosive ET adds 100% of both other types together.
Result when I tested it some time ago with altogether 525% corrosive, including 20% from power ET: About 115k

Now its changed to kinetic/corrosive, so u get 50% of the earlier Add Corro ET: This means 57.5k
With the 25% buff it shall get that are rounded 72k. Add in the 50% DD ET and u are at 108k.
(Not sure how much troons I had, not more than 1m I think)

For the amount of % damage I have and compared to other its seems fair to me.
Ofc only if it gets the same projectile's speed as them. Otherwise it wont be able to compete.

Btw, I'd like to know how much damage the other Beams/Projectors do against a shield build with the same amount of %.
If u provide us some numbers, Players/Scythe, we could decide if the buff is too high or maybe even too low.

And pelase dont forget, whetheru reach that damage only with one damage type or combined,
u first have to reach as much % damage as me in this example either way.

That which we call a rose would smell as sweet by any other name.
Best Arts-Thread
#73153 by DevNull Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:25 am
Interesting how the mods that are doing that testing will already be setup for what to use the patch goes live...And everyone else will be wasting flux for resets etc trying to figure out what works and what doesn't...


ou812 shadylane..

I dont have many friends, I just know alot of people
#73154 by GuestNINJAS Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:34 am
Nice keep nerfing kpb nice job

The player above this signature first played in september 2014 and joined the following clans : NINJAS, United Nations, NINJAS III, NINJAS, Defiance (Kicked unfairly), and is now in Blue Hawks Elite!

Ask for help in game if you need !
#73176 by Bellatrix Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:52 am
DevNull wrote:Interesting how the mods that are doing that testing will already be setup for what to use the patch goes live...And everyone else will be wasting flux for resets etc trying to figure out what works and what doesn't...


ou812 shadylane..


As I have expressed before, I can test what ever combo you want when the test server goes live, you just post what you want me to test and I will give you the numerical values. I can not change the fact that normal players are not allowed on test server, but I try to help you.

All changes are also posted here, discussed together with the community and based parts on their feedback.

If you have further suggestions how to solve this I am willing to listen to you or anyone else.

Bellatrix, the shinning star of Astroflux
#73177 by BrianN Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:05 pm
Bellatrix wrote:All changes are also posted here, discussed together with the community and based parts on their feedback.

That wasnt the case last time...

The truth always lies between the two ends of an argument.
#73180 by Bellatrix Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:09 am
BrianN wrote:
Bellatrix wrote:All changes are also posted here, discussed together with the community and based parts on their feedback.

That wasnt the case last time...


If you are refering to change of zhersis, this was not part of the changes of the test server, this has been said 10 times over and over again. It was a change made by the devs, discovered post change.

The changes to weapons were all posted last time I checked. We will do what we can to make sure the change log is as correct as possible.

Bellatrix, the shinning star of Astroflux

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AstroFlux is a MMO space shooter with numerous weapons, upgrades and abilities. Explore the galaxy and collect space junk to gain resources for new technologies.