Suggestions for features or improvements
#74784 by hugojmaia Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:52 pm
I haven't put much though into this one, it poped in my head recently and I though it was worth sharing.
We've had the balance update discussion thread going hot about what to nerf, what to keep, what to buff and other things of making PvP overall more fair for everyone to get into.

Then it hit me, make it so arts don't do anything in a PvP match.
You get your ship, your weapons and w/e upgrades you've acquired on it.

This should make PvP far more accessible to everyone. And will also ensure that if 2 players are flying the same ship then the only possible variation between the 2 will be the elite tech and weapons.

The only grind relevant to PvP matches then would be getting the steel to upgrade everything (Though with enough skill one could do just fine with their elite techs at 80), getting the flux to purchase the powerful ships and then copying weapons left and right to get the right combo in a ship.
#74790 by BrianN Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:34 am
This has been proposed before...it isnt astroflux...AF without arts isnt AF.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” -Edmund Burke
#74791 by TheScythe Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:47 am
if i remember correctly, something like this was actually in place 3-5 years ago. Artifacts in pvp arenas only contributed 50% of their strength. At some point it might have been 25%. might have got changed for some reason which i dont know - was before my time

TheDepraved
#74792 by hugojmaia Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:04 am
TheSupreme wrote:Why not just have rocket paper scissors for pvp?

Do you want for player skill to amount to nothing?
The idea here is to just lower the power ceiling for everyone participating in PvP. As it currently is, nobody has reached the ceiling and the power gap is already too large for most people to overcome.
And as odd as it may seem, in such a match people would die considerably faster than in the current matches.
This doesn't even need to replace the current PvP system, just making it like an extra gamemode or a separate queue people can select.
#74793 by Jpsi Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:29 pm
Has been proposed multiple time, with no effect.

Instead of nerfing everyone down, I am thinking now-a-day that boosting everyone up is the way to go (to close the gap between players):
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12368#p73638
Giving a solid arts base to everyone who farm a bit, base that will no longer rely on luck, will help a lot to make pvp more interesting.

Other point: make everyone level 150 (instead of level 100 as it is now) in the high bracet. Putting everyone at level 100 is actually increasing the effect of arts. Not really for % arts (as those are proportionnal), but for flat arts the difference is quite big - putting everyone at level 100 is really increase the strenght of flat arts during ranked pvp.

#74795 by BrianN Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:57 pm
"Luck" in farming artifacts is a misnomer...if you farm as much as us vets do (roughly 20,000 vors elite/blob arts for me), then statistically, you will have very similar stats to others who farm so much. Its the law of diminishing returns. "Luck" only comes into play when you farm far fewer top level arts than that, where your chances to have a 'top art' are lower...so two people who have both farmed 100 high level arts can have very different arts due to luck.

Or put another way, alot of players' arts have nothing to do with 'luck'...theyve farmed and worked on their arts, and shouldnt be punished or that work be negated. People whine about having to farm a couple hours in order to get enough steel or flux. Well, Ive spent over 24 (idk how much more, easy to lose track) hours farming solely blobs. So, yeah, I sort of deserve a little advantage.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” -Edmund Burke
#74800 by Jpsi Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:57 am
Sorry Brian, but you're wrong.

For some reason after people get via 'luck' something, they think it's easy to get. Well, this is a misunderstanding very human, but still a misunderstanding. Getting an execptionnal rof art above level 120* is statistically very difficult. My best rof art is still from the time I was farming in co-op. And yes, this was before rof upgrade, probably more than 2 years ago. I still don't have HF (weap of the bat), after 1.5 year of daily pod farming (and something like 10 time 10 pods via flux). I am not complaining, I am merely pointing out that pure random process is bad when it comes to get people to fight with each other with equal chance of winning (except skill). On the other hand, I have a 300+ HP art with 100% convert on it, does this mean it's easy to get ? Or I have a mix art 180% en/kin + 30% rof on it, should I say this is easy then ?

New pvp players get generally completely destroyed when trying pvp at level 100+. Why would they keep joining if getting farmed ? Very few have the time to farm a lot, even fewer will have the luck to get very powerfull arts.

*edit: meaning pass 80% rof on one art.
Last edited by Jpsi on Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

#74802 by BrianN Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:03 am
HF is another issue altogether, instead of tens of thousands of arts, you're talking about a couple hundred pods. A 300%+ health art with convert isnt easy to get with 10^5 arts, but I was talking about having overall comprable arts. Sure, Ive got the second highest IAS art on the board, but I never use the thing. Overall, my arts are very comprable to most any other person who has farmed a ton. I may have better rof overall, but my kin and cor arts are sorely lacking.

Being that xp leveling isnt a straight line, there's a bigger difference between a lvl150 and lvl130 than 100 and 50. How many lvl100s have farmed tens of thousands of blob arts? Farming 5 figures of blob arts is going to level you up as well. But there's also the matter of hardware...how many of them have been able to make multiple setups and optimize their ship? The differentiating factor between 100 and 150 isnt luck. 100s shouldnt have to pvp against 150s; but if luck were such a big deal, why isnt there some 'lucky' lvl100 tearing through 'unlucky' 150s.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” -Edmund Burke
#74804 by Jpsi Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:36 pm
BrianN wrote:why isnt there some 'lucky' lvl100 tearing through 'unlucky' 150s.

Luck plays mainly a role after enough (minimum) farming, that's why fresh level 100 will anyway have difficulty to compete. But at least with an artifact shop he will quicker be able to compete by having (almost) same artifact power, and this progession will less rely on luck. Also, about your sentence, maybe there is also some lucky level 100 (with a couple of thousands art farmed) having better arts than unlucky level 150 (after 20 thousands+ farmed arts) : I have no proof there isn't, in theory this could (and should) perfectly be the case (mainly in case of reroll, when the fresh level 100 knows how to play and where to farm).

BrianN wrote:but my kin and cor arts are sorely lacking.

This is exactly why I think an artifact shop need to be introduced. Even after thousands and thousands of arts farming, there is still no guarantee that you will get the arts you want to use in the setup you like.

Note that you will still able to farm artifacts in pve if an artifact shop is introduced: if you want to gain an advantage, you can still farm and get some better arts. But the difference won't be extra 50% damage as it can be now (from 170% to 220% for instance, when I compare the best damage arts to what most people have acces), but solely 20% (from 200% to 220%), which will make the fight much more interesting.

Also, the artifacts from artifact shop still need to be gained in time (at the end of each month, you can convert the troons gained to pay whole or part of an artifact), meaning that you will not get everything easily, it will be gained in time (but at least you will be sure to get what you want at the end - and I am pretty sure most will love those extra rof arts).

#74807 by BrianN Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:31 pm
Luck plays mainly a role after enough (minimum) farming, that's why fresh level 100 will anyway have difficulty to compete.

Not sure what you are saying here. Lvl100s have problems competing because they've played the game less than half as much as lvl150s.

But at least with an artifact shop he will quicker be able to compete by having (almost) same artifact power, and this progession will less rely on luck

Why should someone be able to buy an artifact that others have spent hours working to get? We already tipped the scales where a lvl1 can get a pod and have an overpowered weapon that even a lvl150 cant get. What's more, you cant grind for pods...someone who simply logs in and completes daily can spend minutes working on it and get the same number of pods as someone who grinds all day (minus buying a pod with 450 flux which can take hours), do we want to further devalue actually playing the game?

maybe there is also some lucky level 100 (with a couple of thousands art farmed

How many non-alt lvl100s do you think have farmed thousands of blob arts?

Even after thousands and thousands of arts farming, there is still no guarantee that you will get the arts you want to use in the setup you like.

But the way it is now, you are more likely to have the arts you want by farming a ton. Do you really want it to be that someone can just buy or hack flux or hack troons and put no work in and have insane arts? Not to mention that an artifact shop would be another soft point for people to exploit a system that isn't maintained.

Also, the artifacts from artifact shop still need to be gained in time (at the end of each month, you can convert the troons gained to pay whole or part of an artifact),

You are proposing to completely change the game, and to make irrelevant the thousands of manhours put in farming. You are then going to a troon-based farming system...easiest way to get troons is planet wars, and planet wars is vastly different at different times of the day. There are certain points in the day when whole systems sit uncaptured for many minutes, and there are other times where its hard to get your daily done. So any lvl50 that plays at the right time would have a huge advantage over a 150 that plays at the wrong time.

The fact is that the problem of art disparity is one that can be fixed by putting in the effort that others have. If you cant, well then that's fine, you can be reasonably competitive (I haven't farmed arts for 11 months now). The problem with 100 v 150 has little to do with arts, it has to do with XP (which you gain when you farm) and steel reserves. This is another case of having a specific problem (lvl100s getting ran over in pvp) and proposing a nuclear solution that will effect far more things than it needs to. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” -Edmund Burke
#74811 by mt10kardans Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:44 pm
We allready have artifact market. Only its black market specialized for clients with connections. For narrov clientele available so to speak.
#74816 by traf Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:58 am
mt10kardans wrote:We allready have artifact market. Only its black market specialized for clients with connections. For narrov clientele available so to speak.

Please post a list of who you believe copied or hacked artifacts, and we'll get them checked out. If you'd rather not post them in public, send them in a private message. If anyone else has information they'd like to share, please send it to us. Veiled references help no one.



Back on topic . . .
I've personally posted at least one suggestion for helping the steel problem: on level-up, convert some of the xp gained into steel and/or other resources. That could get everyone at level 100 a guaranteed ~5M steel, and everyone at level 150 ~200M steel. Want more steel to throw around? Just play the game, do missions, etc. (This would also help with vorsran gold crates not being worth much. Each zhersis kill would give at least 40K steel, in addition to the level 150 arts. Wouldn't that be nice? :P )

Please feel free to private message me!

"Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you."

“Don't write so that you can be understood, write so that you can't be misunderstood.”
― William Howard Taft
#74819 by Jpsi Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:14 am
We disagree Brian, but I respect your point of view.
As far as I'm concerned I don't see any point to fight someone with much lower artifact power than mine: it removes all the challenge and the excitement of the fight, it's a waste of time (I just feel quite sorry that there is nothing he can do). I don't care that I farmed more that he did, I choosed to, I just played longer the game than he could, but when we need to fight inside a dom or a dm, it should be interresting.

BrianN wrote:You are proposing to completely change the game, and to make irrelevant the thousands of manhours put in farming.


No, and that's the beauty of it: heavy farmer keep their advantage. But it becomes a smaller advantage. About the fact that you need to farm troon: yes, but one don't need all the arts of the list, with one or two they will already be much more competitive.

Your comment is also why I am against removing all arts in pvp: this is the base of AF, we shouldn't touch it. Or maybe as a test for one specific pvp game mode, but then there is the problem of making peole join pvp all together.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

About

Welcome to the AstroFlux forum! This forum is here to provide you with a friendly environment where you can ask questions and receive helpful information from experienced players. Please Join the discussions in the Astroflux forums. The game developers are active here and are happy to hear what you think!

AstroFlux is a MMO space shooter with numerous weapons, upgrades and abilities. Explore the galaxy and collect space junk to gain resources for new technologies.