Post what you've discovered, guides, hints & tips
#38920 by Jpsi Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:01 pm
Greatings !

Well normally I reserve that kind of post of the forum of my guild (Defiance), but it's been down for some time and I thought it could be used by others, especially to help for the new situation. I change the value yesterday for the new update, I hope you'll find it useful.

EDIT: just to be clear, this guide is only valid for weapons with a single damage type (needles, corrosive lightning...). I have the data for multiple type, ask me if you want it.

Guide: how to select your arts config and maximize your dps

For those you don't want to bother reading the rest of the post and/or the table, here is a shortcut:
Golden Rule: try to get a little more than twice as much %damage than rof (increase attack speed) in your config - this will give you the best results in term of dps. For instance, if you have 80% rof, try to get something around 200% damage.

The table below gives you the dps increase when using rof and %damage arts.

increaseDMG.jpg
increaseDMG.jpg (230.5 KiB) Viewed 8625 times

On the horizontal lines, you can find the increase in dps when increasing the value of your %damage arts. The unit that has been chosen is 50%.

On the vertical columns, you can find the increase of dps linked to the increase of your rof (the new so called increase attack speed). The unit chosen is 25%.

One must realize that just increasing one of the two will not give the best results, as the relative increase of one unit in a stat that is already high gives a small increase. This is illustrated by the 2 grey lines effect unit:
- if you have 0% damage, adding 50% will increase your total dps by 50%.
- if you already have 200% damage, adding 50% will just contribute to 17% to your total dps.
So the effect of 50% damage will have less impact in your gameplay if you already have 200% than if you are at 0%. At 200%, adding one unit of rof will be more beneficial, as this will increase your total dps by 25%.

Please note that ship bonus should also be counted as units.


How to use this information ?

Paper mode:
Well, consider than you have a total of 10 available unit via arts. If you want all those units on damage, you should choose 6 unit of %damage and 4 units of rof. So in that case, 300% damage and 100% rof, which would give you a nice increase of 700% of your dps. Pretty good :) but then you will be probably paperish.

Note that the total number of available unit will depends on the quality of your arts. Generally, a decent arts will have 2 units, a very good arts 3 units. If you need one art for resist all, then you will have 12 units total, but then you want a kind of convert, which cost 2 units generally.

You also have to decide how many units you can spend on damage, and how many on defense. A balance has also to be found here. So that's why we have:

Balanced mode (well, up to you):
Something like 6 units available in damage. You should probably want to go 4 %damage, 2 rof, so 200% damage with 50% rof. But 3-3 is also nice, cause the power cost per shot will decrease, and the dps will be almost the same.

Tank mode:
Probably 3 or 4 units available for damage, should end up with 25% rof and the rest in %damage.


Last information of this table: the power cost show you how much power you will need per shot. With no rof, each shot cost 100% of there standard value. At 100% rof, each shot cost only 50% of the normal cost. And 200% rof, each shot cost only 33% of the initial value. Sometime you can want to lose a little damage but shoot more bullet (to debuff, for instance).

The choice is your :)


Note about arts quality: I use the unit method to compare arts and find the best solution of multiple lines arts. The total value of an art is given by the number of units. I have an excel table with my best 50 arts. Each stat has to be calibrated with a unit factor. Here is my calibration:
- %damage: 50% per unit
- rof: 25% per unit (new rof style)
- shield: 75% per unit
- armor: 125% per unit
And etc... I use quite a lot of stat. A good art should be almost at 3 units, or more.
This calibration can be change depending of your arts, and your needs. If you want to emphasized shield, for instance, decrease the unit value on shield and re-sort your arts.


Hope this can help :)

J.
Last edited by Jpsi on Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:48 am, edited 8 times in total.

#38960 by AnthonyC118 Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:58 pm
I noticed that if you use 2 damage artifacts in your build and have an ROF art with above 50% attack speed, you gain more total DPS by using the ROF art and your damage art instead of 2 damage arts (especially if your best damage art is much better than your second-best ROF art). Note that this will reduce your burst damage if you want to have extreme damage per shot.
#38963 by Jpsi Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:58 pm
This depends on your arts anthony, but yes, generally using a mix gives better results, as you can see in the table.

But you can also chose in some situation to go full %damage in order to one-shot people.
Or to go rof in order to decrease the power cost of some weapon.

Generally, choosing a config with a little more than twice %damage than rof (like %damage = 2.5 x %rof) should give the best results in term of dps.

Thanks Dag :) Well now all knows how I build my set-up :) I used this before to get the best config, but the curves were shifted in the direction of high rof. I am really really pleased it's more balanced now, really nice job from Dev and beta-tester team. Much more players will be competitive.

#38984 by Jpsi Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:33 am
Let me give it a try via a couple of screenshot.

I put some colors for each elements of the table. Let focus on one color at the time.

Here is the explanation of the x-y-axes:

increaseDMG_Base.jpg
increaseDMG_Base.jpg (238.75 KiB) Viewed 8549 times


In Blue, it's the % damage. First it's 50%, second it's 100%, etc. The unit is just saying something about what you can expect from one art. If you have pure %damage art, you should have at least 2 units, so 100% damage, and if it's a good art you should reach almost 3 units, so 150%.

In Red, it's the %rof. The first line is 25% rof, the second is 50%, etc. The unit in that case is 25%: if you have a decent exceptionnal art, it should be at 2 units, so 50%. A good art will reach 3 units, so 75%.

In green, it's the total dps increase you will get from the combination of %damage chosen and %rof. For instance, have a look at the third column: it's the column of 150% damage. You can see that you will get :
- an increase of 213% of your dps if you have 150% damage and 25% rof
- an increase of 275% of your dps if you have 150% damage and 50% rof
- an increase of 338% of your dps if you have 150% damage and 75% rof
- etc.

Now, you will tell me that rof and %damage should have the same effect of the dps, as mentioned by Kumo. Or in other word, 100% damage will have the same effect as 100% rof: both will give 100% dps increase. Well this is correct, and let see why I created this table.

increaseDMG_Example.jpg
increaseDMG_Example.jpg (231.46 KiB) Viewed 8549 times


In orange, you can see that 200% damage and 50% rof will give you 350% total increase damage.

In yellow, you can see that 50% damage and 200% rof will also give you 350% total increase damage. This is coherent with what Kumo said.

But then, why did I make this table ? Well you can't get the same amount of %rof and of %damage in one art. It's good, because rof also gives you a decrease in the power consumption, so it's more useful than %damage. From my experience, you should get something like twice as much %damage than rof for the same art quality. So it will "cost" you more in term of art to increase your dps via rof than to increase your dps via %damage. This is illustrated in the table by the brown number, which is a calibration factor between %damage and %rof (in term of unit). You don't need to use this information, but I am using it to generate the table, and I can change it if needed.

But then, why did you do this table if you already know that going %damage will be more effective than going rof, as your arts will have better value ?
Well I'm glad you ask. Even if %damage arts will be more effective (cause one pure %damage arts will always give a higher value than one %rof arts, for same art quality), the table show us that mixing %damage with some rof will be better than just using %damage. This will be explain in the last part of this post. For now, let just say that this table was build in order to find out what was the best ratio between rof and damage, in order to get the best dps. By looking at the table, you should easily find what to increase first in order to get the best results.

About the number of the green part (see above): to be sure that we are talking about the same thing, let me take an example. In white, you can see the case of 100% damage and 100% rof. If you add 100% damage, your dps will be doubled, right ? Now adding 100% rof will also double it, so in total you will get 2x2=4 times the inital damage. If you start with a dps of 100k, then you will end up with 4x100k=400k dps. So the increase in dps will be 400k (final dps) - 100k (initial dps) = 300k, which is an increase of 300%. This is also the number given by the table, in white.

Ok, I hope this did help a bit, You can pause at that point :)

I just wanted to finish with the last piece of information of the table, which is somewhat less important but will complete this explanation post. You don't need to read it, it's just FYI if you are bored :D

increaseDMG_rest.jpg
increaseDMG_rest.jpg (235.7 KiB) Viewed 8548 times


In purple: the line "effect unit" shows you what the effect of the last added 50% damage will be on your total dps. Adding the first 50% will increase your total dps of 50%. Adding the second 50% will increase your total dps of 33%: imagine you have 100k dps, then adding the first 50% will give you 150k dps. Now, adding the second 50% will give you a dps of 200k, right ? (you have 100% damage art) So the effect of the second 50% on your total dps will be the increase (200k-150k) = 50k, divided by the dps you had with just 50% damage (the 150k): the total increase will be (200k-150k)/150k = 33%. The higher you go in %damage, the less effective 50% damage will be on the increase of your total dps.

It's not that easy to understand this last point, but it's the key to optimize and balance your ship.

Same goes for Rof: in pink, second column, you can see the effect of each unit, so 25% for the first 25%, 20% for the second 25%, 17% for the third 25%... Note that this curve will be exactly the same than the %damage curve if the unit of both stat would have been the same.

Well this information is not really useful, but can give you a quick idea on what you should try to increase first to get the best effect. Let assume you are in the grey situation: you have 200% %damage and 75% %rof, and this increase your total dps by 425%. Now, what do you need to increase next ? You can read in the effect unit that increasing a unit of %damage will give you 17% more dps, and increasing a unit of %rof will give you 14% dps increase. In this grey case, increasing the %damage will be more effective. Of course, you could also just have looked at the number: having 250% damage and 75% rof gives you 513% dps increase, and having 200% damage and 100% rof gives you 500% dps increase. 513% > 500%, so you should increase %damage first. The two lines "effect unit" just explain why this is the case.

Last information of the table is the light blue: if you increase your %rof, your power consumption will decrease. You should read each line at a time:
- having 25% rof make each shot cost 80% of the normal value
- having 50% rof make each shot cost 67% of the normal value
- having 75% rof make each shot cost 57% of the normal value
- etc.

Well, that's all, hope this is more clear now.
Last edited by Jpsi on Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

#38994 by Jpsi Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:52 pm
Edit: I added a shortcut at the beginning of my first post. It's the golden rule that you can follow to balance your rof/damage in order to maximize your dps.

#39025 by Bellatrix Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:52 am
Maybe I'm reading it all wrong but the best combo would be 300% damage and 175% rof, a ratio of 1.71429. The opposite of what you wrote in the first post. I get the same results testing.

E.g. I have some arts with 117% damage and 15% rof, and some that are just pure 130% damage, i get more damage using the rof art then just the higher damage one. My best combo consists of 275% damage and 150% rof, with my arts. That is very close to your nummbers aswell.

To improve it more I should try to get the rof up to 160% and leave the damage where it is.

So to use it the easiest is maybe to try to get the 1,71 ratio between damage/rof arts?

Bellatrix, the shining star of Astroflux
#39027 by Jpsi Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:45 pm
Hey Bella,

Well thanks for the question, this is exactly why I created this table :)

Your config is quite good, as you have 13 damages units. But the golden rule is still valide:
- At 175% rof and 300% damage, you get 1000% increase in dps.
- Via golden rule, you could go 150% rof and 350% damage, it will give you a higher dps: an increase of 1025%
- Or you can even goes to 400% damage for 125% dps, it will give you the same dps of 1025%, while being less sensitive to armor.

Of course having 175% rof is good for the consumption, but you will lose in dps, especially in front of armor. You could even go 450% damage for 100% rof, to get the same dps as the configuration with 175% rof/300% damage, but you will be even less sensitive to armor, and missiles/chrono will do much better.

Don’t forget to count the ship bonus in the damage and the rof.


Ps: somehow I have the feeling that showing those tips to potential opponents is maybe not the greatest idea :D

#39028 by Jpsi Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:07 pm
pomah86 wrote:My best combo consists of 275% damage and 150% rof, with my arts. That is very close to your nummbers aswell.

To improve it more I should try to get the rof up to 160% and leave the damage where it is.


Hum I just realized that the config with 175% rof and 300% damage was an example and not your direct case.

With your config= 275% damage and 150% rof:
- If you increase your damage by 50%, it will increase your dps by a little more than 15%
- If you increase your rof by 25%, it will increase your dps by 10%.
= you should definitely increase your damage first, and leave your rof as it is now (or even lower it to 125%)

But of course it depends of your arts, having something like twice more damage than rof is good enough, that’s why your ratio of 1.7 is still ok. If you look at your arts, you can see than the one with rof is superior to the other one:
- 130% = 2.6 units
- 115% + 15% rof=2.3+0.6=2.9 units
So the second arts is better because it’s more difficult to increase rof than damage.

#39029 by Bellatrix Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:53 pm
Jpsi wrote:
pomah86 wrote:My best combo consists of 275% damage and 150% rof, with my arts. That is very close to your nummbers aswell.

To improve it more I should try to get the rof up to 160% and leave the damage where it is.


Hum I just realized that the config with 175% rof and 300% damage was an example and not your direct case.

With your config= 275% damage and 150% rof:
- If you increase your damage by 50%, it will increase your dps by a little more than 15%
- If you increase your rof by 25%, it will increase your dps by 10%.
= you should definitely increase your damage first, and leave your rof as it is now (or even lower it to 125%)

But of course it depends of your arts, having something like twice more damage than rof is good enough, that’s why your ratio of 1.7 is still ok. If you look at your arts, you can see than the one with rof is superior to the other one:
- 130% = 2.6 units
- 115% + 15% rof=2.3+0.6=2.9 units
So the second arts is better because it’s more difficult to increase rof than damage.


How do you calculate the damage units? I read that you were talking about them, I'm just not so sure how you calculate them from an art...

Bellatrix, the shining star of Astroflux
#39030 by Bellatrix Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:55 pm
pomah86 wrote:
Jpsi wrote:
pomah86 wrote:My best combo consists of 275% damage and 150% rof, with my arts. That is very close to your nummbers aswell.

To improve it more I should try to get the rof up to 160% and leave the damage where it is.


Hum I just realized that the config with 175% rof and 300% damage was an example and not your direct case.

With your config= 275% damage and 150% rof:
- If you increase your damage by 50%, it will increase your dps by a little more than 15%
- If you increase your rof by 25%, it will increase your dps by 10%.
= you should definitely increase your damage first, and leave your rof as it is now (or even lower it to 125%)

But of course it depends of your arts, having something like twice more damage than rof is good enough, that’s why your ratio of 1.7 is still ok. If you look at your arts, you can see than the one with rof is superior to the other one:
- 130% = 2.6 units
- 115% + 15% rof=2.3+0.6=2.9 units
So the second arts is better because it’s more difficult to increase rof than damage.


How do you calculate the damage units? I read that you were talking about them, I'm just not so sure how you calculate them from an art...


Yeah you are correct, with ship bonuses I get at 350% damage and 150%, since there is no cap to rof and no cap to damage, there is no limit either? It just goes up and up...

Bellatrix, the shining star of Astroflux
#39033 by Jpsi Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:24 pm
pomah86 wrote:
How do you calculate the damage units? I read that you were talking about them, I'm just not so sure how you calculate them from an art...

Yeah you are correct, with ship bonuses I get at 350% damage and 150%, since there is no cap to rof and no cap to damage, there is no limit either? It just goes up and up...


No, there’s no limits (well, this remember me of a song…), but that was also the case before, just that the rof was limited to 300% increase damage, but you could still go up and up via %damage. It was also not linear: with 50% rof (so two arts, or 6 units) you had 100% increase damage, now it’s much easier to get a mix :) That’s why I said that this upgrade was increasing the dps of most people, but as they increase our survivability it’s ok.

About the arts unit: I chose the 25% and 50% from my own experience. A 150% damage seems the same quality than a 25%rof-old-way, so a 75% rof now. I use a unit of one third of this good art, because it’s easier to play with the number and we can see more what it’s happening.
Btw, the arts unit is not just about damage: a shield gives 75% shield per unit (I had 70, but 75% is a better number), and 125% per unit for armor.
This gives a quick and simple method to find the most useful/best arts from your inventory.

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