Post what you've discovered, guides, hints & tips
#55027 by Jpsi Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:30 pm
Greatings,

As you may certainly know, there are two main ways of building a ship in Astroflux, the third being a mix of both which generally results in a sub-optimal setup. Here is a way to understand how this works, and the consequences of both strategies in term of damage reduction:

- the health (or HP) builds, characterized by the use of a ship with high base shield (like judicator for instance), that you can increase using %shield arts; you can then convert this shield to health, and gain a factor 1.5 to archieve high HP setup.

- the shield (SH) builds, characterized by the use of a ship with high base health (like the bionic queen for instance), that you can increase using %health arts; you can then convert this health to shield, and gain a factor 1.5 to archieve high SH setup.


First of all (as noted by Dag, see below), both strategies have some advantages in term of shield/health regeneration, and special abilities:

- SH setups have generally high shield regen per seconds (around 5k per seconds with few efforts at level 100+, can reach 10k with some efforts), due the convert HP to SH process. One of the main advantage of those setups is the possibility to use a hard shield duration of 2.5 seconds (via shield elite tech) without sacrificing your shield poll (as you shield will come from the elite tech of armor (%health) - letting you freely choose your elite tech of shield)

- HP setups use the repair key F to heal, which can also be effective as it can in practice multiple your shield regeneration by a factor 2.5 (400% efficiency on 50% of your shield regen during the convert give you 200% of your regen in HP, plus 50% of your regen stays in shield). While using F, you will also double temporary the value of your armor. Unfortunately, you will have to choose your shield elite tech wisely: using %shield, you can gain high HP values, but with a normal hard shield of 2 seconds. Or you can use a hard shield of 2.5 seconds, but with poor conversion possibility. The last strategy is to convert your shield to health regeneration, which cannot be debuffed and offer a solid way of constantly gain health. The elite tech of armor will probably be unbreakable for pvp purpose, or you will be very sensitive to armor debuff weapons (like beamer for instance).


Both strategies can work great, but the damage reductions you can gain from them are very different.

The HP setup protects you of a constant amount each time you receive a bullet, regardless of the damage this projectile made.
The shield setup will however always protect you of 35% of the incoming damage, and become then very effective if the opponent shoot you just once with a very high damage projectile.

In practice, the damage reductions will depend on the amount of damage, and finding the optimal protection might be tricky.


The tables below give you an overview of the kind of damage reduction both strategies will provide, and the difference between them. It’s based (and valid) only under the following assumptions (futur updates can make this post not valid - I made these tables near the end of 2015, I hope this is still up to date):
- When a bullet first touches you, it receive a maximum of 75% reduction from resist all, in pve, and 50% reduction in pvp,
- If you debuff the damage of the enemy, you can get an extra 50% damage reduction on the damage after the resist,
- Shield will then provide a constant 35% reduction,
- Amor will provide a reduction depending on its value, but this reduction is limited to 90% (in pve) of the original damage amount, and 75% in pvp (= with infinite armor, you will still get 10% of the bullet damage in pve, and 25% of the bullet damage in pvp). The armor value can be decreased (mainly in pvp) via armor reduction weapons, up to a maximum of 25% reduction (so 75% armor left after reduction)

Note that for the pve situation, I consider no armor reduction, which is the same as an unbreakable armor of the 100% value (in pvp the max unbreakable value is 75%).

In all cases, one should realise that the damage reduction provided by armor or by shield will not depends on the rate of fire (rof) of the enemy, but depends merely on the amount of damage per bullet. Of course, the comparison of shield VS armor will also depends on the amount of armor you have, so the tables describe the reduction amount depending on the armor value (horizontal) and the damage per bullet (vertical).


1/ PVE situation: no damage debuff on the opponent, 75% resist all, armor not reduced by any techniques.

armorVSshield_PVE_small2.jpg
armorVSshield_PVE_small2.jpg (249.16 KiB) Viewed 5521 times


Table on top: the reduction on a SH build (column Dmg after shield) only depends on the damage per bullet (column Dmg per shot), which ranges here from 2500 up to 50000 damage per bullet. The damage reduction of HP setup (table on the right, with title Dmg after armor) will strongly depends on the amount of armor, ranging here from 1000 armor to 10000 armor.

In the table at the bottom, you can see the difference (in percent of the damage after applying resist) of both strategies: if the value is positive (in red), HP setups will offer more protection, whereas if the value is negative (in blue), SH setups will be better.

Example: in the first cell (first line, first row), you can see that if you get hit by a bullet that deals 2500 damages (for instance, gatling gun) and if you have 1000 armor, you will get 55% more protection from armor than shield on the remaining damage after resist. This is a comparison of the protection you get on the remaining damage after resist (in this case, 625): you will receive 65% (406.25, see table at the top) of this remaining damage if you are only protected by shield, and you will receive only 10% (62.5) of the remaining damage if you armor is shot. The difference between shield protection (35%) and armor protection (90%) is 55%, which is also the direct damage difference (406.25 - 62.5 = 343.75) divided by the damage after resist: 343.75 / 625 = 55%

- as excepted, a SH build will be more effective if you can only have low armor: at 1000 armor, as soon as you opponent fire a bullet that deals 12500 damage or higher, shield will protect you better. Against a bullet that deals 50k, shield will protect you 27% more than armor from the damage after resist.
- At 4000 armor, you will be more protected by HP setup if the bullet stays below 47500 damage.
- At 5000 armor or higher, you will most generally have a higher protection via armor (so in HP setup). However, you will also probably have to invest in armor artifact, so those builds are more demanding to build.

2/ PVP (1) situation: without damage reduction, 50% resist all, armor reduction of maximum 25% (75% protection unbreakable).

armorVSshield_PVPnoDebuff.jpg
armorVSshield_PVPnoDebuff.jpg (195.63 KiB) Viewed 5521 times


As you can see in the comparison table (the upper table with damage values is not showed, as it's less relevant), SH setup are more effective than in pve, as the resist will only protect you by 50%, and as the opponent will generally try to reduce you armor. However, using damage reduction (see next table), the advantages of shield VS armor become much lower, as well as if the opponent do not reduce your armor.

3/ PVP (2) situation: with damage reduction, 50% resist all, armor reduction of maximum 25% (75% protection unbreakable).

armorVSshield_PVPwithDebuff.jpg
armorVSshield_PVPwithDebuff.jpg (207.37 KiB) Viewed 5521 times



What should I do with this information ?

Well, all the trick is to estimate the amount of damage per bullet your opponent will use. In pvp for instance, the question you have to ask yourself is: what kind of weapons most opponents uses ? How much damage do these weapons do ? What is the best strategy to protect myself against those ?

In general, you can see that in pve, armor will more easily be more effective, whereas in pvp it's far from being always the case with vorsan-like weaponry that deals above 20k per bullet.

Keep in mind that HP setups will generally protect you better, especially if you use damage reduction, but it will also cost you more in term of stats, as you will need to increase your armor as well as your health, whereas SH setups only require an increase of shield, and also offer the possibility to use a long lasting hard shield, which can save lifes in pvp. And don't forget to use a full resist setup: you can see on the table that the protection offered by shield or armor is always less than the effect of maximizing resist !


Thanks for reading, I hope this can help to make a motivated choice 8-)
Last edited by Jpsi on Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:39 pm, edited 28 times in total.

#55030 by Jpsi Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:30 pm
DaGGerz wrote:Great write up!!

I like the comparisons - but you missed out on the main reason people use shield.

Shield Regen


Well, at least I know that I am not using shield because of the regen ^^ I was using it (before nerf from 200% convert to 150% convert) because the total amount of shield was huge, and now I am using it because it's easier to make a good build.

But well, thanks for the feedback, I edited my post to mention this at the beginning. I still think a comparison is complicated:
- SH setups have generally high shield regen per seconds (around 5k per seconds with no efforts, around 10k with more efforts)
- HP setups use the repair key to heal, with can also be effective as it can in practice multiple your regen by a factor 4 (400% efficiency).

I personally find regen quite useless in most pvp situation, except open pvp when you can freely run (still eggs works better in that case).

Note that the edit I made (paragraph about regen and special abilities) is more a personnal view: I prefer post that are factual and based on real analysis, but well, apparently it was somehow needed.

#55041 by I_Am_Jarvis Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:54 am
... This cannot be right... otherwise your information says that I have an ideal, all-round setup... And yet I still. suck. at pvp. ... Or maybe it's just cause I have rotten luck with arts or something. Half of what I use is blob arts that I got either from competitions or from when I was in Aura (before all the good members split and it turned into TheDepressed... which is VERY depressing :lol: ).

Many a day, I go through mental debates:
Is there any exception to the 3-Ates?
"Tolerate, Compensate, Mediate."
Alas there is none, they are so great.
Perhaps you can try, but only your best.
For every time, these shall pass the test.
-E. Jarvis
#55042 by Jpsi Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:51 am
I_Am_Jarvis wrote:... This cannot be right... otherwise your information says that I have an ideal, all-round setup... And yet I still. suck. at pvp. ... Or maybe it's just cause I have rotten luck with arts or something. Half of what I use is blob arts that I got either from competitions or from when I was in Aura (before all the good members split and it turned into TheDepressed... which is VERY depressing :lol: ).

I am not sure how you are concluding that your setup is an ideal setup based on the information I provided: could you explain ? It will probably offer me the possibility to clarify some stuff.

I added a small example (for the PVE table): it might help a bit to clarify what I did, and how to use this.

In general, the text is more an general explanation, and you probably know that part already. The tables, however, is probably new for most people: I created it for myself somewhere after the summer of 2015, when I decided to switch to shield setup, to compare both strategies. In practice, I was using it like that (conversation with myself for the sake of explanation): "ok so in pvp, I have less than 4k armor, so each time someone uses a weapon which deals more than 15k damage per bullet, is totally useless to go for HP builds, and I should use SH. Or I could try to increase my armor, but then I lose HP or damage..."
Last edited by Jpsi on Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:01 am, edited 3 times in total.

#55043 by I_Am_Jarvis Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:56 am
Jpsi wrote:
I_Am_Jarvis wrote:... This cannot be right... otherwise your information says that I have an ideal, all-round setup... And yet I still. suck. at pvp. ... Or maybe it's just cause I have rotten luck with arts or something. Half of what I use is blob arts that I got either from competitions or from when I was in Aura (before all the good members split and it turned into TheDepressed... which is VERY depressing :lol: ).

I am not sure how you are concluding that your setup is an ideal setup based on the information I provided: could you explain ? It will probably offer me the possibility to clarify some stuff.


I say that because your information claims that one of my setups, which is 4x the health than shield, thus qualifying, would be considered ideal, since it has around 5k armor.

Many a day, I go through mental debates:
Is there any exception to the 3-Ates?
"Tolerate, Compensate, Mediate."
Alas there is none, they are so great.
Perhaps you can try, but only your best.
For every time, these shall pass the test.
-E. Jarvis
#55044 by Jpsi Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:15 am
I_Am_Jarvis wrote:I say that because your information claims that one of my setups, which is 4x the health than shield, thus qualifying, would be considered ideal, since it has around 5k armor.


Are you using damage debuff on the opponent ? If not, you can see in the table that each time an enemy used a weapon that deals 20k or more, shield will offer a better protection. This is the only conclusion the table offer.

But you should keep in mind that those tables say nothing about how good you setup is: it really depends on a lot of factors, the balance between damage and defense, and your arts qualities.

If I just speak about protection (as it's the topic here), you should see it like this:
- how much HP do you have in your 5k config ? You should try to convert most of your shield in order to increase your maximum HP.
- how much shield can you reach when you remove all your armor arts, and convert all your health to shield (you need 100% convert for this setup) ?

If there is a significant difference in favor of shield, maybe you could try to go for shield. What are the damage per bullet most opponents do ? I know that I do something like 25k per needle, lwg is higher (around 40k ?).

If you can't really reach any correct amount of HP or SH poll (like more than 200k - up to 400/500k), maybe the best way should be to add damage to your setup, and rely on hard shield: it will allow you to kill something before being killed. But you shouldn't go too low HP/SH, because you still need to come in range of an enemy in order to shoot him: if you are too fragile, you will die too soon and won't cause any damages.

#55051 by I_Am_Jarvis Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:52 am
Makes sense... But it'd take waaaaayyy too long to go through the stats on each one of the forty arts I have on me at my disposal... All I can say is that my durability kinda sucks, aside from that armor count...

Many a day, I go through mental debates:
Is there any exception to the 3-Ates?
"Tolerate, Compensate, Mediate."
Alas there is none, they are so great.
Perhaps you can try, but only your best.
For every time, these shall pass the test.
-E. Jarvis
#55052 by Jpsi Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:05 am
I have more than 200 arts (upgraded) at my disposal to switch between setups and test stuff. Most are multiple lines with defense/offense, making all kind of combination possible. Cargo is 800 arts, so I can still pick up around 500 - 600 arts to find new goodies.

Trying to optimize you setup is a big part of this game, you should take some time to do it.

#55055 by Ozymandias Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:17 pm
Jpsi, do you have any programming experience? I was considering writing a "simulation" program that takes your ship, level, troons, and other info, and data about all of your arts, and gives you desired output.

eg. Priority - want 400k shield, secondary - maximum dps for Shadow Flames.
And it goes thru whole inventory to find the strongest setup.

Anyone ever attempted anything like this?

EDIT: re below
Of course, apologies for the intrusion.
Last edited by Ozymandias on Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

I am not a comic book villain.
#55056 by Jpsi Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:40 pm
Demi_Constrictor wrote:Jpsi, do you have any programming experience? I was considering writing a "simulation" program that takes your ship, level, troons, and other info, and data about all of your arts, and gives you desired output.

eg. Priority - want 400k shield, secondary - maximum dps for Shadow Flames.
And it goes thru whole inventory to find the strongest setup.

Anyone ever attempted anything like this?


Ahah, yes I did something a little similar, but it was only semi-automatic: it just worked on %health or %shield in one side, and %damage and %rof on the other side. Then it gave me the strongest arts to optimize those 4 parameters, and I made the balance offense/defense myself. But, with so few parameters, I found it actually easier to do it manually, even if a small optimizer is not complicated to build, it's not worse the effort for our arts in AF. We also have to admit that finding the best art combo is part of the fun of AF.

Can we, however, please stick to the topic here ? It's a comparison of the 2 possible builds, not a discussion about arts. I will create a guide for that when the time comes.

#55066 by TheScythe Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:39 pm
Jpsi wrote:
DaGGerz wrote:Great write up!!
- HP setups use the repair key to heal, with can also be effective as it can in practice multiple your regen by a factor 4 (400% efficiency).


They multiply only half of your shields at 400% efficiency, so effectively 200% as hp + the 50% remaining as shield. To compare instantaneously, (non-compound) to the 5000 effortless shield regen on a shield set, you need 2000 on a hp set, which is not as easy. Or, taking 10k as the value, its 4k regen on a hp set. Much much more difficult^

Catch me ingame, and perhaps ill show you the equations racking up cumulative effective regeneration via conversions, which change dynamically with arts and techs. I found the result curves to be of particular interest, i didnt know the most effective method to optimise all health till then.

Also, for the table for PvE you only showed damage values upto 50k. That is 50k raw damage emitted by the npc, i feel you should extend the table to go much higher, atleast 100k to 150k. The raw damage amounts of npcs are much higher than most intuitively think.

TheDepraved
#55069 by Jpsi Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:19 pm
Thanks for the feedback.

I'll have a look to the table, but it has already the size limit for forum attachements, I am not really sure if it's worse the effort. At high damage, shield is better, except if you use damage debuffing weapons. But I can't include all the possible scenari here, alas, I tried to present what I think to be the most relevant.

About the regen, I have to say I added it after the comment of Dag, so I didn't really check or model this properly. However, it seems (to me) logical that the regen that you gain can be entirely converted to HP - as long as we neglect the damage taken during the process:

- let assume you have 10k shield, 1k shield regen, 5 seconds CD on repair.

- first time you press F, you gain 4x half of your total shield, so 5k x 4 = 20k HP.

- after 5 seconds, your shield will have gained 5x the regen, so in that case 5k shield total. You total shield is back to 10k. You press F again, and gain 20k HP.

Your HP regen should be in that case 20k / 5 = 4k per second. Which seems to me a factor 4 in the total amount of regen.

This is however a very naïve calculation, I should have a look and simulate this more precisely.

Here are some first thought: if we consider the shield to be 0 (because of enemy fire), the HP you can gain during one CD is (regen * CD time) / 2 * 4, which give you a value per second of (regen * CD time) / 2 * 4 / CD time = regen *2. But this is only the HP per second gained, and you also have kept half of the regen as shield, which should give you something like total regen (HP and SH) ~ 2.5 x shield regen. That's the value that you are referring to.

I just started a spreadsheet to simulate the effect of cd, and the total possible HP gained via convert. I will include some finding if I see any relevant things.

#55077 by I_Am_Jarvis Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:55 pm
Jpsi wrote:I have more than 200 arts (upgraded) at my disposal to switch between setups and test stuff. Most are multiple lines with defense/offense, making all kind of combination possible. Cargo is 800 arts, so I can still pick up around 500 - 600 arts to find new goodies.

Trying to optimize you setup is a big part of this game, you should take some time to do it.

Alright, alright, I'll go through another hour of my time to list every art and their stats... I'll try to keep it from being ridiculously long...

Many a day, I go through mental debates:
Is there any exception to the 3-Ates?
"Tolerate, Compensate, Mediate."
Alas there is none, they are so great.
Perhaps you can try, but only your best.
For every time, these shall pass the test.
-E. Jarvis

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